Forum #2 “The Ideal Statesman”
Directions:
1. Read, Contextualize, and ATQ:
- The Funeral Oration by Pericles - What are the ideals of Athenian democracy? - CHQ
- ATQ - In the eyes of Pericles, what are the ideals of Athenian democracy? In what ways does
Pericles exaggerate his claims?
2. Read, Contextualize, and ATQ:
- The Republic by Plato - What are the qualities of the ideal statesman? - CHQ
- ATQ - What are the qualities of an ideal statesman? According to Plato, why should
philosophers run the government?
3. Answer Questions on Blogger: Discuss the qualities of an ideal statesman according to Plato. Then decide whether Pericles fits the description of an ideal ruler. Base your conclusions on his speech and what you have read about Pericles in the class textbook.
- theidealstatesman.blogspot.com
Follow the Forum Instructions and Grading Guide located in your Google Drive. You also have a hard copy of this handout.
In the eyes of Plato, a(n) ideal statesman is a philosopher. He thinks this because his teacher dude, Socrates' brought him to that conclusion. In their conversation they simply state that they think philosophers should be a statesman because they have more wisdom than others (Doc 2,C). In their conversation they also state, that a ruler should observe everything (Doc 2, F). Since a philosopher has great wisdom, he probably does observe everything. Honestly, I do not believe in government. I believe their is some twisted way. But if I did believe in government, I would said Pericles does fit the description of an ideal ruler because he had 3 goals on how to strengthen Athens. The three goals were to strengthen Athens' Democracy (which involves wisdom), to hold and strengthen the empire (which also involves wisdom), and to glorify Athens (which needed a lot of wisdom to do so)(Beck, 134). So Pericles does fit the ideal ruler because he pretty much had the wisdom and knew what was best for the city-states.
ReplyDeleteI agree with some of what you are saying. Pericles did have goals for strengthening Athens, but he didn't focus on wisdom as much as Plato did. He focused more on equality and respect of people. (Doc 1, b, d). Pericles was more concerned with citizens ruling, while Plato wanted philosphers, just like you said he was taugh to believe.
DeleteYour opinion of Pericles as an ideal ruler is understandable, but I think you are missing out on some of the other qualities that Plato discusses that would be an ideal statesman. Being a good statesman needs more than wisdom: they would need things like like trustworthiness, fairness, and stuff like that. Unless, of course, you are implying that these characteristics are shown in having wisdom.
DeleteI only agree with some of your logic because Pericles did not fit into Plato’s mold of ideal statesman completely. I don’t think anyone could though. Remember in the textbook on page 134 when Pericles took money from the Delian League to beautify Athens? That definitely falls under greed which defies the mold of an ideal statesman. He also told people that if they had no interest in politics then they had did not belong in Athens, which show a ruler that is not fitting Plato’s description. Pericles only fits some of Plato’s qualities.
DeleteI agree with your view of philosophers being statesman due to their wisdom, however, I have to disagree with Pericles being and ideal statesman. First off, because he wasn't a philosopher. Also because wisdom wasn't the only quality one should have.There were many other factors such as passion, knowledge, truthfulness, and honor that I felt he did not have (doc 2, c,d,g,n). Plus he was very dependent on money that he got from the league. It was mentioned that a statesman would be no lover of money, which was not the case for Pericles (doc 2,j).
DeleteI agree with Lindsay’s assessment of Pericles’ focus on his government rather than the search for philosophical answers. Pericles seemed to be a ruler, not a thinker. He did what he thought was the best for his city and for his government (Beck, 134). Plato’s vision of the ideal statesman seems detached to me, as if having these qualities of wisdom, justice, selfless, etc. created the perfect ruler regardless of how politically-minded the person happened to be (doc 2, I). Granted, having those qualities probably created good politicians, but Plato’s idea of a perfect statesman seems less involved then Pericles method of ruling was.
DeletePlato believed the ideal statesman was a philosopher. He believed they had to embody justice, honor, and goodness in earthly institutions(Doc 2,A). That, a statesman should have a constant passion for knowledge, and wisdom. They must not be a lover of money, meanness, pretentiousness, and cowardice(Doc 2,B,D,E,F,G). Plato had a great ideal of the "perfect" statesman, but did Pericles fit that picture? I say no. Pericles seemed to be in it for himself, and the other state officials more than the people. He said, "everyone is equal before the law" but shouldn't (at least in Plato's eyes) everyone be equal, in everything, regardless of money, or where you lived? (Doc 1,A). Pericles also said "that a man who takes no interest in politics is a man who minds his own business; we say that he has no business here at all." So, Pericles just said if you have no interest in politics, you have no business in Athens? Pericles shouldn't make people interested in politics, only for the fear of being "bullied" about not really caring for Athens, and having no business in the city-state(Doc 1,F).I believe Pericles did not fit Plato's ideal statesman picture.
ReplyDeleteI disagree with your opinion on Pericles' claim that people have to be interested in politics to be a part of Athens. I think what Pericles was trying to convey in that statement of his is that people in Athens are both involved in their own affairs, AND the affairs of the state: they can’t express only one of those conditions. A man who “has no interest in politics” is a man not of Athens. You know what I mean?
DeleteI agree with your statement that Pericles contradicts himself, in a way. However, I do not believe he did not fit the picture completely. He believed everyone to have equality privately and publicly.
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DeleteI disagree with your opinion that Pericles didn’t fit the description of a good leader. You stated earlier that an ideal statesmen had the qualities of bravery (the opposite of cowardice), a passion for knowledge, and kindness (the opposite of meanness). One of the legacies Pericles left was creating one of the strongest Navies in the Mediterranean (Beck, 135). If he was a coward, he wouldn’t have bothered with increasing strength of the military at all. It’s not mentioned specifically that Pericles looked for knowledge all the time (since he wasn’t a philosopher, it makes sense that it wouldn’t be discussed), but he had to have been a smart man to create a direct democracy in Athens, allow the Parthenon’s construction, and build the strongest navy in the Mediterranean (Beck, 134-136). in order to gain knowledge, you have to search for it at some point in your life. He was also a very kind leader because he increased the number of paid salaries amongst the government officials and made Athens a prettier place to live through the Parthenon and artwork. This showed his selflessness and good intentions for the Athenian empire. The textbook also states that he was honest, fair, and popular amongst the people for nearly 32 years (Beck, 134). If he hadn’t have been a good leader, he wouldn’t have been recorded down in history as having these traits. There would’ve been a greater emphasis on the negative aspects in his rule. By saying that Pericles wasn’t an ideal statesmen, you’re proving your own statement false because pericles has all the traits an ideal statesmen should exhibit.
DeletePlato believed the ideal statesman had to be a philospher. He believed they had a better understanding of the eternal, and they possessed the most knowledge. He also believed they had other important qualities such as truthfulness, Passion for learning, and no love for material things such as money. He believed this was key to leading a gentle and sociable society so they could guard and protect laws and Athenian way of life. I believe Pericles may have been an ideal ruler in Plato's mind on some points, like respect and discussion of decisions but Plato would'be disagreed with some of his beliefs, like poverty. I don' t think Plato would'be considered him the ideal statesman.
ReplyDeleteI guess I can say I can agree with you because in our view he would be a suitable statesmen but with Plato's so called "wisdom" he wouldn't believe in Pericles... Ha ha I really don't know what else to say because if I argue with you, I'm probably gonna lose...so I agree ;p
DeleteI agree that Pericles may not have been the best ideal statesman, however, I think it goes deeper than poverty. By the way, where did it state that? Anyways, I think that Plato wouldn't have seen Pericles as the ideal man for the job because of his lack of better understanding of the eternal, passion for learning, and no love for material things as you stated. His main focuses were to strengthen Athenian democracy, hold and strengthen the empire, and glorify the Athens (Beck, 134). He wasn't focused on other things such of those as a philosopher would've been focused on.
DeleteI disagree because the he doesn't have all the qualities that Plato mentioned. He only has a few, like passion for learning and truthfulness. And money seemed to be important to him for his three goals. I thought that wealth and money was mention more than anything else.
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ReplyDeleteAthenian democracy was similar to our current form of government, but there are some differences. First, there was direct power to the citizens (Doc 1, A). People spoke for themselves, not through a representative (Beck, 135). When someone actually had to be put in a higher position, people were selected by their tangible abilities, rather than just their social status (Doc 1, B). People were expected to respect the law and authority, and were also expected to be involved with not only themselves and their families, but with the whole state of Athens (Doc 1, D, E). They also always thought before they took action; Pericles said: “the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated (Doc 1)”.
ReplyDeleteThe major quality Plato focuses on for an ideal statesman is a constant “pursuit of wisdom (Doc 2, A)”, which must be backed up by other basic qualities like kindness, bravery, sociability, fairness, and honesty (Doc 2, B, D, E, G). Plato also highlights that a good statesman does not focus on finance; a good statesman focuses on the people, rather than acquiring a lot of resources.
I do not think that Pericles exaggerated any of his claims. Sure, it may seem strange to let every single person of Athens have equal leadership, since some people can’t be given that much power, but we have to acknowledge the fact that Ancient Greece was much, much smaller than many of the nations that exist today, therefore easier to control. Plato claims that philosophers should run the government, and philosophers were known to make positive changes in society.
I think Pericles, did not match with Plato's description of an ideal statesman. For one, Plato believes that a proper statesman does not focus on finance and resources. Pericles literally spent most of the Athenian budget on precious resources and boats (Beck, 135). On that note, we can already see that Pericles was not the ideal statesman in Plato's perspective.
I agree with your point that Pericles did not match Plato’s idea of the ideal statesman because he spent so much money on glorifying Athens, which only highlights the fact that Pericles was more concerned with making Athens great than focusing on the citizens of his city. He did strengthen Athens’ government, which he had set out to do (Beck, 134) but he was a ruler for the city, not for the people. In other words, he was definitely a politician, but he was not the “philosopher-king” that Plato called the ideal statesman.
DeleteEven though he did spend so much money on glorifying Athens, Plato also says that an ideal statesman must guard the laws and ways of life in society(doc 1n. a). He does this by building temples for the gods such as the Parthenon for Athena. He also wanted to have the best Greek sculptures and architects build these so that he could glorify Athens. I agree however that taking the money from the Delian League was unlike what Plato had described as an ideal statesman, he still did it for Athens so that the people would glorify their gods and their city.
DeleteI agree with your idea that Pericles did not math with Plato's description of an ideal statesman because he spent a lot of money on glorifying Athens and he also took some money to strengthen his navy. I get why Pericles would steal money for these reasons but he should have gotten permission to use the money first. All in all, you did a really good job on explaining the points of Plato and Pericles.
DeleteI agree that Pericles did not match Plato ideal of an ideal statesman. I feel that way to because he spent a lot of money on beautifying and glorifying Athens just for support. He took money from the Delian league to get support and to strengthen is Army. Its true that Pericles was a good leader because he fixed the democracy but he was greedy and not a follower of wisdom. So he does not fit Plato qualities of an ideal statesman.
DeleteAn ideal statesmen, according to Plato, is a philosopher. In his eyes, these men exhibited all the qualities needed in order to rule a city-state including kindness, honesty, truthfulness, honor, selflessness, and good ideas (Doc 1N, J, B, G, L, I, A). Apparently, a philosopher had these traits in their never-ending pursuit for knowledge and didn’t have time to think about being anything else other than a “good” person. I think Pericles was a good ruler based on the qualities one needed to be one (according to Plato). The textbook states that pericles was a “skillful politician, an inspiring speaker, and a respected general” (Beck, 134). He also had many ideas in regards to government and beautifying Athens that helped the empire dramatically. He increased the number of paid officials in government office creating a greater desire to be involved in it, brought a direct democracy to Athens, led the people to victories in battle on the sea, and allowed the construction of the Parthenon (Beck, 134-136). Through this, he was able to gain the trust and loyalty of the people. This lead Pericles to be an exceptional ruler for the Athenians. Although Pericles didn’t fit Plato’s description as being a philosopher, he still had all the characteristics of one. In my opinion, a leader didn’t necessarily have to be an official theorist, just a man that had good intentions for the community and treated himself and others with respect.
ReplyDeleteI agree that a philosopher had a never-ending pursuit for knowledge and would strive to be a good person. And that in order to rule a city-state properly in Plato's eyes, the statesman would have to have kindness, honesty, honor, etc.. But I truly think that Pericles didn't fit the picture of an "ideal" statesman to Plato. But I agree that he might have had some qualities of philosopher and that a good leader must have good intentions and respect others.
Deletei do follow up to agree. philospher was deadicated in trying to being the good for his citizins along with just pleasing himself on the other half. Perticles came off as unexepting compare contrast to platos statement of "ideal"
DeleteI see what you are saying and i agree to partial parts. The thing is Pericles was a good person but he was greedy and that is what made him fall. Plato wanted a statesman who was a philosopher and Pericles did not fit that description or he didnt fit certain qualities. Since he was greedy and he wasnt a philosopher he also did not have a passion for knowledge which was what Plato wanted. So Pericles would not fit Plato way of a ideal statesman.
DeletePlato states that a perfect statesman is a philosopher. The qualities they possess include; temperateness, does not care for the money but the people, cowardice, fairness, kindness, honesty, and sociability (Doc 2, K). Knowledge was a main component Plato thought a statesman should hold (Doc 2, C). With knowledge, comes wisdom and truth and the perfect truth of reality (Doc 2, D, E). I believe Pericles fit Plato’s picture of an ideal ruler in some ways, but did not in others. Pericles claimed that everyone in the Athenian democracy was treated with respect and equality, which Plato would like (Doc 1, B, E). Then, he almost contradicts himself in a way by saying if a man has no interest in politics he does not belong (Doc 1, J). I thought he said everyone was equal and their environment was free and open (Doc 1, B, E)? It is unclear to say a definite yes or no to this question because different key points vouch for different answers.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you. He does contradict himself by saying if a man has little to no interest in politics than he doesn't belong. I also agree that it is a little unclear if he was the ideal statesman, but I believe more was against him.
DeleteI agree with your line of thought. Pericles fit the mold in some ways but not in others. Don’t forget how Pericles basically stole from the Delian League treasury to beautify Athens for his own fame and glory. I believe that falls under greed which goes against Plato’s qualities. I never thought about Plato saying that if you don’t have an interest in politics then you don’t belong in Athens.
DeleteEven though Pericles did steal from the Delian league, he did it to build temples and massive structures to honor the gods which as Plato described was guarding the laws and ways of life in society(doc 1n. a). The Greeks worshiped their gods and did many ceremonies and rituals in their honor. So, in a way he was preserving their culture and adding to the beauty of Athens. However he didn't, as you said, fit all the traits of an ideal statesman overall concludes to him not being the best idea of a statesman in the eyes of Plato.
DeleteI agree with what you said about the qualities of an ideal statesmen. They should be kind, honest, and have knowledge of reality (Doc 1N, J, L, A). I disagree with your comment that “everyone was equal and their environment was free and open”. In a direct democracy, everyone has the opportunity to put in their own ideas about government and laws that should be put in the community. The definition of direct democracy is “a form of government in which citizens rule directly and not through representatives” (Beck, 135). Based on this definition, you can tell the citizens were free to say what they pleased about political issues.
DeleteAccording to Plato a Republic was ruled by a philosopher.this was because of the concept of justice and view seperatiions of the 3 classes: farmers and artisans, warriors, and the ruling class. (Beck, 138) A clear understanding would be to view the ability to takr choices in actions was a trait that was large for in a ruler. He oredered that he wants to instruct the city along with help the people.The purpose was to create harmony to develop a justice state. (Doc 2, D, E, G)
ReplyDeletePersonally Pericles would fit the role of Pericles' important ruler for multiple positive and negitive reasons. He wanted a city-state of democracy and for them to use direct democracy. Built a government where citizens rule directly on their own terrf. (Beck, 135) Money and military items were a big part in his favorites. (Beck, 136) He only wanted praise the Athens and be known for whathe created or bought amoung them to make them specalized in what ever they cherrished. (Beck, 135)
Plato's perspective on a developing a city of equal and satisfied minded citizens was incorperated around focusing among their needs and to use specific detail to acknowlegde those on how conflicts where dealt with. (Doc 2, B, D, H) Pericles granted to have equal views throughout the Citizins, but didn't take very much time off his hands to understand his people. along with their wishes or acceptions of what they wanted. (Doc 1, A-I)
Hmmm... I guess I would agree with you too because y'all pretty much made me kind of see both views on how he would and would not be the "ideal" statesman. I do believe in some way if I did believe in the whole democracy thing he would be an ideal statesmen but he would have flaws but yet again we are all humans, we all have some type of flaw
ReplyDeletePlato believes that a philosopher should be in charge because they have an understanding of everything “eternal and unchanging” (doc 2, A). He thinks there are certain qualities such as the desire for wisdom, a love for the truth, be free from greed, should be kind and be able to learn (doc 2, B,C,D,E,I). I believe these are all important things to look for in a ruler. But, I believe Pericles did not fit all of these qualities, which in Plato’s eyes makes the ideal statesman. Pericles seemed to be in it for himself, wanting to make a name for himself. I know this because he took money from the Delian League treasury for his own gain to make the people like him for beautifying Athens (beck, 135). This shows greed which goes against Plato’s qualities. Even though Pericles fell to greed he also had a great mind because he strengthened the Athenian democracy by paying more public officials, which gave more people in Athens the choice to run for office (beck, 134). Which is also supported in his speech when he said, “ we give our obedience to whom we put in positions of authority,” because it shows he understands how the democracy functions (doc 1, C). So according to Plato’s qualities needed for the ideal statesman Pericles would not fit the bill because he was greedy when he took money from the Delian League to beautify Athens. But I believe everyone can make one mistake, so I believe in my opinion that Pericles can be an ideal statesman.
ReplyDeleteAccording to Plato, the ideal statesman was a philosopher. He believed philosophers had many qualities that were best fit to be a good leader. He thought that the knowledge and wisdom possessed by philosophers were important qualities. Many qualities would include kindness, passion, truthfulness, being fair-minded, honor, and bravery (doc 2, c,d,e,g,m,n). I don’t think that Pericles fit the description of an ideal ruler based on the qualities Plato thought one should have. I’m not saying Pericles wasn't a good ruler, because I think he was a great ruler in the way he put the people first. However, he didn't necessarily have many of the qualities of a philosopher. It was said that one would be temperate and no lover of money but he used the Delian Leagues money to strengthen the Athenian navy, beautify Athens, and buy gold, ivory and marble (Beck, 135). Pericles lack of wisdom in his strategies led to the Sparta victory during the Peloponnesian War (Beck, 137). So, while Pericles did do many things glorifying him as a good ruler, he lacked many important qualities that would be the best for a statesman.
ReplyDeleteI agree with what you said Pericles was a great leader by putting the people first, but when it came down to Plato's standards for becoming a statesmen Pericles did not meet the necessary requirements. Your Answer is well thought out and to the point, good job!
DeletePlato’s idea of the ideal statesman was basically a philosopher, wisdom-seeker. A philosopher, according to Plato, was a deep, analytical thinker, and they had a thirst to learn (doc 2, a, b, c, h). Plato’s vision of an ideal statesman was not very political; he seemed to believe that a thinker would be able to rule by virtue of his ability to reason (doc 2, b). The ideal statesman to Plato was a man who was “quick to learn, magnanimous and gracious, the friend and kinsman of truth, justice, courage, temperance” and not necessarily a good politician (doc 2, i). He believed that the right to rule should not always go to the person who could talk their way to the top, but to the person with the greatest intellect (Beck, 138).
ReplyDeletePericles was not quite Plato’s idea of a perfect statesman. Pericles was a politician, not a philosopher, and his focus was not on knowledge, but on strengthening and glorifying Athens (Beck, 134). This did not entirely fit into Plato’s idea of an ideal statesman, because he did not care so much about the pursuit of philosophical truths but of the more mundane life in his city, namely, bringing Athens together as a city and as a power in the Delian League (Beck, 135). He put many ideals into place, but they were ideals that Plato may not have agreed with, because Pericles believed in the government, in governing the people, not just being a philosopher-king and thinking about governing the people (doc 1, e, g).
I agree entirely with what you said about Pericles not being Plato's idea of a perfect statesman. The ideas of the two did not exactly agree with each other when you look at them, as they, as you said, had two different views of what the leader of the government should be like, one way or another. Honestly, with the way Plato had described the perfect statesman, he might as well have come out and said that he felt that he deserved to be king, not only other people like him (philosophers).
DeleteI agree a hundred percent with your claims, i didn't go too into depth with my blog response about the fact that Pericles was a politician. Pericles grew up around politics, his mother's uncle was Cleisthenes, and his immediate family was aristocratic. Plato was a philosopher since a young age seeing the fact that he was only 22 when his teacher, Socrates, died. These two by nature, would have different viewpoints on who was able and worthy to rule.
DeleteThe main ideal of the Athenian democracy is a perfect person, and society in the kingdom. The democracy is controlled by the opel of Athenian. They do not, “give him the kind of black looks which, they do no real harm, still do hurt people’s feelings”(1M). Here they must respect all neighbors. In public affairs they keep the law, and this is because it commands are within respect of everyone. They all obey whom they put in position of authority, and obey the laws. When they have a decision on policy, they submit them to a proper discussion. They say, “the worst thing is to rush in action before the consequences have been properly debated”(1M).
ReplyDeletePericles says, “I declare that our city is an education to Greece, and I declare that in my opinion each single one of our citizens, in all the manifold aspects of life, is able to show himself the rightful lord and owner of his own person and do this, more-over, with exceptional grace and exceptional versatility”(1M). Pericles's does exaggerate his claim by saying that his/their city is the education to Greece. Also he takes all of the qualities in what he has mentioned to himself. In this he is saying that he is the only one with the ideals, and ideas of a perfect community and an education to Greece.
Plato is a Greek philosopher and writer, and he believes that, “a philosopher should run the government because the can apprehend the eternal and unchanging. On the other hand, others can not do so, are lost in the mazes of multiplicity and change, are not philosophers, which of the two ought to be in control of a state,”(1N). In this statement, Plato is implying that statesmen are easily caught off guard and not doing a great job. A philosopher would better suit the position. In saying this, Plato also says, “it would be absurd not to choose the philosophers, whose knowledge is perhaps their greatest point of superiority, provided they do not lack those other qualifications”(1N). Also Plato describes statesmen to be “hard to deal with, and dishonest. If the man is temperate and free from the love of money, meanness, pretentiousness, and cowardice”(1N).
Plato thinks the ideal of a statesman is not always honest. He thinks of them as sometimes hard to deal with. With philosophers though, they always have a good temper, and are fair minded, gentle, and sociable.
Although you did not completely state whether Pericles would fit as a statesman according to Plato, I still feel as though I can agree with what you said because you did make it clear that their viewpoints on the matter were different enough for one to gather such a thing. However, I disagree with what you stated about a statesman not always being honest. In our excerpt from "The Republic", Plato states that one trait that you can't fail to possess is truthfulness, meaning that you have a love of truth and a hatred of falsehood, that you will not tolerate untruth at all (doc 1n, h).
DeleteIn the eyes of Plato, the qualities of an ideal statesman was that they must guard the laws and ways of life in society, have good character, have an inborn disposition, have a love of truth, be temperate, not overlook things, be fair minded, gentle and sociable, have a good memory, and see reality in its true light(doc 1n. a-i). In my opinion I think Pericles fit some of the qualities but not all.(Which was what Plato saw as the ideal statesman.) Plato says that statesman are to be lovers of truth and see reality in its true light. Pericles doesn't fit this quality. He exaggerates his claims about the Athenian democracy bu saying everyone, we Athenians and each single one of out citizens. He is speaking on behalf of the people instead of revealing the true nature of even the ones who disagree with the government and maybe have a different view on how things are in their society. Pericles does however a Plato says, "philosophers are those who can apprehend the eternal unchanging,..." He was a great leader and was well known for his political achievements. He also guarded the laws and way of life in society. "Pericles' goal was to have the greatest Greek artists and
ReplyDeletearchitects create magnificent sculptures and buildings to
glorify Athens." (Beck 135) He believed in the arts and beauty of Athens. Even though he didn't fit all of the qualities for an ideal Athenian statesman according to Plato, he still did some of them and believed in governing the people.
I agree with what you said, Pericles did not fit all of Plato's expectations but he fit some. You stated the qualities of an ideal statesman and your answer was good! Plato saw that Pericles had somewhat of the qualities, but what Plato was looking for Pericles did not obtain all of the standards.
DeleteThe ideal qualities of a statesman, according to Plato, were almost literally that he must be a philosopher. What is meant by this, is that the traits that should be required are nearly the same traits that a philosopher would or should have. For example, a statesman should be competent, knowledgeable and have a passion for such knowledge, truthful, the list goes on (doc 1n, a, b, d, f, h). Also, he clearly states that it would “be absurd not to choose the philosophers” (doc 1n, c). So, by words of Plato, Pericles would not be qualified as a statesman. Would he possibly have a chance of being one? Maybe, but as far as what Plato wrote, no. To break it down, Pericles obviously would seem to be competent and knowledgeable about some things, otherwise he really should not have been a leader whatsoever. However, one aspect of a statesman that Plato believed is necessary that Pericles did not have was being truthful. Although he was described as “honest and fair” within the textbook (Beck 134), I feel as though this can be debunked later in the text. Pericles had organized the Delian League to strengthen the civilizations against the Persian Empire and bond the city-states as one body (strikingly similar to the United Nations of today). Problem is, though, Pericles used the money from the league solely for himself and the city-state of Athens by ways of strengthening the Athenian navy and beautifying the city itself, all without the approval of the league (Beck 135). And, of course, Pericles wasn’t a philosopher, so that kind of knocks him out of the race, haha (doc 1n, c).
ReplyDeleteI agree with your statement that "Pericles would not be qualified as a statesman." Pericles did have some good traits but he also lacked some of the traits that Plato was searching for. Pericles was definitely not a philosopher but he was a great military leader. Pericles was not truthful like the time when he stole money to glorify Athens and to strengthen their navy. All in all, I agree completely with your whole argument.
DeleteI understand your argument, but I disagree. From the start, I agree with your statement that Pericles was not a philosopher. But that was just one requirement that Pericles didn’t meet. Every other quality I believe is met by Pericles. Being a philosopher is just a title, but I believe Pericles has the understanding of a philosopher, whether he has the title or not. And although he used the Delian League’s money to beautify Athens, it resembled his love of art and and beauty. It showed that Greece as a whole had the ability to overcome the devastation of the war and served as a role model for the other cities that his way of life was peaceful and full of expression, which was appealing to people.
DeleteThough Pericles had a lot of Plato’s desired traits, I do not believe he was at all who Plato had in mind. Plato wanted philosopher, Pericles was a politician (Beck 134). According to Plato, the ruler of a society should be the wise, fair, and understanding (Doc 2: a,i). Pericles was all of these things, he was also graceful under pressure, and an inspiring public speaker (Beck 134). Plato also said that ideal ruler should be trustworthy, and honest, and their mind and heart should be free from greed (Doc 2: a,d,e). Pericles on this account wasn’t. He had taken from the Delian League treasury, without consent, to fulfil his own agenda: to beautify Athens (Beck 134). In this instance he proved himself of being a conniving thief. Though Pericles was approachable and understanding when it came to things relating to Athenian government and its policies, historians say he wasn’t very sociable outside of politics (Beck 135). In conclusion, Pericles did have a lot of Plato’s desired traits, but I do not believe he had what it took to be the ideal philosopher king.
ReplyDeletePericles fits some of the Plato's description of an ideal ruler. He was dedicated, and he thought about his decisions, smart and wise (Beck, 134) but he didn't seem open-minded. What I thought Plato's description of an ideal ruler meant that they are dedicated, considerate, wise/smart, realistic, open-minded, honest, and fearless (Doc 1N a, b, c, d, e, g, h), Pericles didn't seem considerate, but he seems more like the rest of the description (Beck, 134-137). Pericles thought about the think he was going to do and the benefits, like when he increased the number of public officials who were paid salaries and Delin League (Beck 134) and he used the money from the league to glorify Athens by buying gold, ivory, and marble (Beck, 135). Also, the fact that he won the war made him seem fearless.
ReplyDeletePlato desired a lot of traits such as being very smart, having a lot of experience, understanding the eternal an unchanging, and have a passion for knowledge. They also should not love wisdom and falsehood at the same time (Doc 1N a,c, d, e, f, h). However, by words of Plato, Pericles would not be considered a statesman. Pericles valued politics and believed that everybody was equal in the law (doc1M b,g). Even though Pericles was a respected general, skillful politician, and an inspiring speaker, he didn't have what Plato needed for a statesman (Beck 134). Pericles also used money a lot to empower the Athenian's navy and to glorify Athens by buying gold, ivory and marble (Beck 135) which goes against Plato's rule of not loving money (Doc 1N i). Pericles used a great strategy against the Spartans and his strategy was to avoid land battles with the Spartans (Beck 137). However, with all these great traits that Pericles had, Plato would not have chosen him to be a statesman.
ReplyDeleteI understand what you are saying, but I disagree. The arguments you have created I believe can go both ways. You say that him using money to beautify Athens symbolizes a love of money, but I believe it symbolizes a love of art. Building such things gives jobs to the people of Athens, which I think also shows his love of knowledge in art and leadership. Also, him believing everyone was equal in law represents him being fair, a quality that was held high in the eyes of Plato. Even though, I understand your argument and see how you came to that conclusion, but I view it in a different way.
DeletePlato believed that a philosopher should be in charge because of the qualities a philosopher has. Since philosophers have a love for truth, a freedom of greed, and a love for wisdom Plato felt that this would be helpful in leading. See Plato believed that philosophers can apprehend the “eternal and unchanging.” Philosophers have a passion for knowledge so according to Plato this passion will help leaders make decisions. Since philosophers focus on truth and knowledge then Plato felt that they would put their knowledge to leading as well as always telling the truth. Philosophers are not greedy and are not loving of money according to Plato. Plato ideal leader and statesman is someone who is fair-minded, gentle, sociable, and require a good memory. Also his mind must must measure with grace and see every reality in its true light. (Doc1N, A,B,C,D,E,F,G,H,I)
ReplyDeleteIn my eye’s i do not think Pericles had every quality that was the ideal statesmen according to Plato. See Pericles was in it for himself trying to make a name for himself. He took money from the Delian league for himself to beautify Athens. This attempt was to gain people that supported him. He took the money for his own good not just to beautify Athens.(Beck,135) This shows greed in my eyes which would go against Plato’s ideals. Pericles as a ruler strengthened the Athenian democracy. He hired more public officials as well as paying them. This gave more people a chance to run to be an official. (Beck, 134) In Pericles speeches you can see that he actually understood the functions of democracy which would be a good quality according to Plato. According to Plato, Pericles would not be an ideal statesmen because he doesn’t fit all the qualities. I feel though that he was smart but he fell to greed which could knock him down so i believe he is not an ideal statesmen.
There are many qualities Plato thought the ideal statesman should posses. They should be mindful and protective of laws and have an understanding of everything. Also, they must be a philosopher. This is because philosopher’s have a love of knowledge. Also, they should strive for truthfulness. They must have a good memory and be quick (Doc2, b, f, h, l-n). Pericles fits Plato’s description of a ruler. He was fair in that he let everybody be a part of the government, although some roles were smaller than others. He said, “No one, so long as he has it in him to be of service to the state, is kept in political obscurity because of poverty” (doc1). This helped the poor get into the government and politics, so it was not just the rich people trying to better themselves, but yet to better Athens as a whole. But still, everybody had to obey those that were in a higher position than them to keep everything entirely fair (doc 1, a, c-e). He believed he should “(1) to strengthen Athenian democracy, (2) to hold and strengthen empire, and (3) to glorify Athens” (Beck, 134).
ReplyDeleteaccording to Plato, is a philosopher. In his eyes, these men exhibited all the qualities needed in order to rule a city-state including kindness, honesty, truthfulness, honor, selflessness, and good ideas. First of all they need to have a love for knowledge and learning (doc2 D).Secondly they need to have a love for truthfulness (Doc2 F). Plato believes philosophers have these qualities and other qualities that make a good statesmen. Plato also feels a statement should be fair minded and gentle (Doc2 H). Finally he believes all statesmen need to be unselfish, gracious, and the friend of truth, justice, courage and temperance ( Doc2 I). Based on Plato’s description Pericles wasn't a perfect statesman. Pericles was very selfish in the fact that he made be people follow his laws even if they didn't want to. Plato believed a statesmen should be a philosopher and Pericles was not q philosopher. Even though I don't think he meets Plato's standards Pericles does meet some of them, such as being very wise and truthful ( Beck 134).
ReplyDeleteAccording to Plato, the qualities of an ideals statesman had a different variety that would consist of having a passion for learning, being truthful, knowledge on life, wisdom, and having good character. (Doc 2, A,B,F,) Due to the fact that of Plato’s high expectations, Pericles did not meet Plato’s high standards.Although Pericles was fair and unselfish, he (Pericles) had a lust for money in which he would spend on the army, navy and decorating Athens. (Beck,135) Pericles had other things in mind, he just wanted to have a stable civilization and he did that by buying Athens with gold and marble. Although Pericles went against some things Plato had standards for, Pericles had a huge amount of respect for authority as well. Which was a valuable trait by Plato.(Beck,135) With all the evidence that has been portrayed i believe that Pericles would not have been a perfect statesmen, due to the fact that he had a love for money and favored money over anything.(Beck,135) But Pericles was a respectable ruler, he was a good statesmen, but when it came down to Plato’s expectations he didn’t meet all of the criteria needed.
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