Forum #2 “The Ideal Statesman”
Directions:
1. Read, Contextualize, and ATQ:
- The Funeral Oration by Pericles - What are the ideals of Athenian democracy? - CHQ
- ATQ - In the eyes of Pericles, what are the ideals of Athenian democracy? In what ways does
Pericles exaggerate his claims?
2. Read, Contextualize, and ATQ:
- The Republic by Plato - What are the qualities of the ideal statesman? - CHQ
- ATQ - What are the qualities of an ideal statesman? According to Plato, why should
philosophers run the government?
3. Answer Questions on Blogger: Discuss the qualities of an ideal statesman according to Plato. Then decide whether Pericles fits the description of an ideal ruler. Base your conclusions on his speech and what you have read about Pericles in the class textbook.
- theidealstatesman.blogspot.com
Follow the Forum Instructions and Grading Guide located in your Google Drive. You also have a hard copy of this handout.
According to Plato, an ideal statesman would be someone who has a passion for knowledge and love of wisdom, someone who continues to educate themselves (doc 2, a, c). They need to be level-minded and care about more than just money (doc 2, d, g). I think that Pericles does not fit this description. He increased the pay of city officials in order to strengthen democracy (Beck, 134). This wasn't a bad thing for the people who received higher pay but on Pericles' part it showed that he was caring about money. According to Plato, the ideal statesmen shouldn't care about money. Pericles also used money from other people to buy gold, ivory, and marble(Beck,135). This was good for Athens, it helped it to thrive but according to Plato, Pericles probably would've been considered "greedy".
ReplyDeleteI agree with your response. You explained it perfectly and hit all of his requirements for the ideal statesman. If I could make suggestion, this is only a suggestion don’t get mad at me, next time add at least add one more requirement. But other than that you explained everything good.
DeleteI disagree, yes caring for money was bad in Plato's eyes, but everything that Pericles was for the good of Athens and its people. Pericles help Athens to strive for the best and to also be the best. The people of Athens were all very intelligent. He may have not fit Plato's description, but he was a great ruler.
DeleteI agree with this response. You got down the need to knows well and you backed it up pretty well. I do agrre with you on all of them so I think that m=this is very well said.
DeleteI highly agree with you.Pericles was greedy with his money and always bought high value material. Pericles also did help the Athens to thrive bi increasing the pay to the city officials.
DeleteIf you were right about anything it was that Pericles did not fit Plato's requirements as an ideal statesman. Plato's description is selfless, but all Pericles cares about is himself and money. Pericles would not be an ideal statesman.
DeletePerfect response. It was well thought out, and well spoken. You hit all major points on the head, and covered any questions someone needs. If someone hadnt read the article, they could very easily have a summary of it and understand it by your summary.
DeleteTo be an ideal statesman according to Plato, they need to have destinct characteristics and qualities. He believed that they had to have to greatest passion in any knowledge (Doc 2, G). The statesman needs to be all for the truth and against falsehood (Doc 2, I). With the importance of truth comes the importance of wisdom (Doc 2, J). Also, they need to be a quick learner because the opsitcals that will come with the power and have the qualities of being fairminded, gentle, and sociable (Doc 2, L & M). In my opinion I think that Pericles would fall between the category of fitting the description and not fitting it. As a ruler, Pericles had goals such as strengthening democracy, holding empire strenghth and glorify Athens (Beck, 134). The fact that he was smart about making the Athens better, equal and free kind of fit the description (Doc 1, b c & d). One way that Pericles differed from Platos description was that Pericles focused on money (Beck 135), which Plato didn't want to be an important characteristic.
ReplyDeleteI agree with your response. You explained it perfectly and hit all of his requirements for the ideal statesman. By reading yours I was able to structure mine. I agree with your opinion, Pericles doesn’t fit the description of Plato requirements for the ideal statesman. He cared more about money then Plato ideals of money. You explained it perfectly.
DeleteI totally agree with your responds. You pretty much hit all the requirements that Plato stated. I really like how you said that Pericles did and also didn't fit the description because it's true. In some ways Pericles did fit the descriptions, but on the other hand in some ways he also didn't fit. I really liked it good job.
DeleteI agree with everything that you said because you explained what Plato saw as an ideal statesman. You hit all of the requirements and it even helped me get an idea of what I thought. I also like how you felt that Pericles fit and didn't fit into Plato's description.
DeleteI highly agree. You totally nailed the basics of a statesman and clearly defined what they need to have to be able to do the job successfully.
DeleteI agree with most of your reasonings except for that, i think that Plato wasn't exactly looking for "equality" or "freedom" in the position of the ideal statesman. I believe he had certain requirements that not everyone could manage to apply to and most people could not live up to them. Therefore, Pericles belief in freedom and equality would not qualify for the role of the ideal statesman.
DeleteI agree, you covered all needed points, and gave a point of view from someone who did a good summary of the article.
DeleteAccording to Plato the ideal statesman, would be someone who is very knowledgeable, fair and truthful, loves wisdom, and level minded (doc 2, a, b, c). The need to have a good memory, not care so much about money, and someone who cares about the truth and not falsehood (doc 2 g, f, d). I think Pericles does not fit the description of the ideal statesman according to Plato requirements. First, Plato says you should care about money, Pericles spent tons of money to beautify Athens (Beck 135). Pericles believed in democracy and Plato ideals were not much of a democracy (Beck 138). Just because Pericles isn’t the ideal statesman doesn’t mean he wasn’t a good ruler.
ReplyDeleteI agree with your answer. You cited your answers clearly, which allowed me to look back through the article and book and see where you found your answers. I do, however, disagree with the fact that you said he doesn’t fit Plato’s requirements at all. Although he spent a lot of money in efforts to beautify Athens, he did care for the citizens and their needs. I do agree with what you said at the end though. Pericles doesn’t perfectly fit the image of an ideal statesman, but that doesn’t mean he wasn’t a good ruler. Great job !
DeleteI agree with your answer because you hit all of the requirements that helped me look back at the articles and understand what you were talking about. I, on the other hand do not agree with you saying that he did not totally fit hid description. I believe that Pericles did and didn't fit all of Plato's descriptions. However, I think you did a really good job about explaining what you thought and how you backed up you opinions with information from the text itself.
DeleteThis was a very well worded analysis of the distinct differences between these two men's viewpoints. They both had different mindsets as to how a society should function so if you are looking at it from Plato's viewpoint then Pericles was not a good leader. Although when you look into the textbook the majority of Pericles time in it is positive attributes, it really just depends on which way you are viewing it.
DeletePlato’s idea of an ideal statesman is someone who has a passion for knowledge, a desire to know the whole truth, and a love for wisdom (Doc 2, a c). They must be temperate and free from the love of money, meanness, pretentiousness, cowardice and dishonesty (Doc 2, c d). They will also need to be level headed, gentle and sociable (Doc 2, d). I think that Pericles fit Plato’s description of an ideal statesman pretty well. He sought after the truth to uphold the laws that were set to keep everyone equal before the law. He was smart and used good ideas to make Athens stronger and better. However, Pericles did do things that differed from Pluto’s description. His focus on money to increase the number of public officials who were paid salaries goes against Pluto’s description (Beck, 134).
ReplyDeleteI agree with this, because I was able to see where you found your evidence to support your answer. Pericles did fit the description more than he didn’t, which was stated in your answer. His love for money wasn’t just shown in the increase of public officials salaries, but was also shown in his spending on art and architecture. You worded your answer very well, and you hit all the points that needed to be.
DeleteAccording to Plato the ideal statesman has to love knowledge, be wise, fair and truthful, and also they have to have a great memory.(doc 1N-G,K,J,Q) The ideal statesman also has to have no care for money what so ever.(doc 1N-M) I think that Pericles was a great ruler and I also think that he fit Plato's description very well. Pericles and the people of Athens were very intelligent.(doc 1M-M)To Pericles laws and democracy were very important(doc 1M-E) Like I stated before I do think that Pericles fit Plato's description because Pericles was very intelligent. Pericles had very good plans for Athens(Beck-135) Pericles was also very helpful to Athens and he was also very truthful. The only way that Pericles doesn't fully fit Plato's description is because he cares for money, he spent lots on money on beatifying Athens(Beck-136)
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ReplyDeleteAccording to Plato, an ideal statesman should embody notions of justice, honour, and goodness in earthly institutions (doc 2, c). They should also have a passion for knowledge (doc 2, e). The ideal statesman should be fair minded, gentle, and sociable (doc 2, n). The statesman must also have a good memory, and a mind with measure and grace (doc 2, p q). Plato also thought that an ideal statesman should not be a lover of money (doc 2, j). An ideal statesman should also be competent enough to guard the laws and ways of life in society (doc 2, b). Pericles would not for the image of an ideal ruler. One reason for that would be that he spent a lot of money on building art and architecture (Beck, 135). But he also fits somewhat, because he was very caring towards the citizens, and even made a law where the citizens could afford to be in public office, no matter what social ranking they were (Beck 134-135).
ReplyDeleteI agree in some areas and disagree in others. I agree that Pericles cared too much for money and Plato said exactly that he shouldn't (Doc 2, k). I disagree when you said that a way Pericles fit Plato's description. Pericles DID let people be in public office no matter there social ranking but Plato didn't want that. He wanted highly educated people to lead and if people from all social rankings were to lead they weren't necessarily guaranteed to be intelligent. That is all.
DeleteI agree because i also found that Plato emphasized that the ideal statesman should be fair minded, have good memory, and grace. You mentioned all of his descriptions in his writing of "The Republic." I also agree that Pericles wouldn't be fit for the role of an ideal statesman because he believed in the equality of everyone and he did not mind what social rank or position they had but according to Plato in order to be qualified for the position, you needed multiple qualities and it was very specific, he didn't believe in "equality" for all.
DeleteA statesman has a love of knowledge and are very wise. Also have no care for money. They were not selfish or greedy the were fair to everyone. They were not afraid to make hard to decisions and spoke their minds when they wanted to. They would have to have a good memory and be responsive when problems happened even small one (Doc 2,a b c d e f g h i). Pericles would not be a good ruler because he cared to much about money not peoples needs. He would buy things for himself and not what the people need.
ReplyDeleteAccording to Plato important traits that a statesmen should possess include:a desire to learn more, seek truth, and detach themselves of worldy things(Doc 2,i j k l m). He stresses a lot of things throughout the article but he spends a lot of time addressing these things so it would seem these are more important to him. He says a leader cannot fail to "truthfulness, a love of truth and a hatred of falsehood that will not tolerate untruth in any form." He says it is key to wisdom and untruthfulness and wisdom cannot go together(Doc 2, i). Plato also talks very much about striving for knowledge and abandoning desires of pleasures(Doc 2, j) He says worldy things create meanness in people and says a leader should not do that. Pericles differs a bit from Plato's ideals in the sense that he wanted everybody to have equal opportunity unless they were a paid worker (Beck, 135). Plato suggest that an ideal ruler would have a community led by intelligent people not to say that the people of Greece were not smart but Plato said that would be better. Pericles also cared very much about money and Plato said that you should detach from that (Beck, 135).
ReplyDeleteI agree with you about Plato. He thought that the main ideas of an ideal statesman was to be honest good natured and had the desire to know more. Without these traits according to Plato you was not an ideal statesman. The last and most important trait you stated to me was to abandon all desires.
DeleteAccording to Plato there had to be a few qualities to be an ideal statesman. He or she had to have a lot of knowledge and education to be able to make smart decisions so that decisions were not based off of money and profit. Statesmen could no be unselfish or greedy every thing had to be fair to everyone , and having a lot of courage to speak and not be afraid so that they could make hard decisions . The Statesmen must have a good memory and must be quick to learn when little problems rise (Doc 2, a b c d e f g h I). I don't believe Pericles would fit the role of Pericles ideal ruler. First off, Pericles wanted a city-state of democracy. They used direct democracy, a form of government in which citizens rule directly. (Beck, 134 135). Pericles also cared about money to much and would buy gold and other fancy material. According to Plato, the ideal statesmen shouldn't care about money (Beck, 135). Pericles was to greedy with his own stuff but it kinda helped the Athens thrive.
ReplyDeleteI understand the jist of what you're saying and I also agree because during that time period Pericles main focus was really just to get Athens recognized,loved and glorified by everyone. Rather than being an ideal leader he was a ideal "Hollywood agent" meaning he really just did his best to put Athens out there rather then guide them.
DeleteI get what your trying to say. I agree as well because Plato wanted his philosophers to have an education and make smart decisions. In order to do that they didn't think about money issues. They wanted to have philosophers that would care about the government.
DeleteYasmine Kenney
ReplyDeleteWHAP 1B
In Plato's literature work The Republic , we are able to grasp an idea of what qualities, he as a philosopher, believes that are necessary to be an honorable statesman (Beck,138).In the entry we contextualized Plato was very specific about what qualities he would like to see portrayed in an ideal statesmen; that being someone who has a passion for knowledge, that is a hater of falsehood, that only pursues good things, that is humble ,that is fearless, really the list goes on and on (Doc 1n: a,v,c,d,g,h,j,k).If Pericles were to be judged based off of these idealistic he wouldn't be classified as an ideal ruler for several reasons. For one Plato had stated "..for he will be the last person to care about the things for the sake of which money is eagerly sought and lavishly spent" if you take a look in the textbook it talks about Pericles spending money with out the Delian Leagues approval to glorify Athens (Beck,135). This not only cancels out one Plato characteristic but two, because on top of being a lover of money Pericles is also disregarding the custom of truthfulness , having a love of truth and hate of falsehood because he is going behind peoples backs (Doc1n:e,f). Even though Plato had a biased mindset that was conformed to glorify philosophers Pericles still would not have been a good leader.
According to Plato's beliefs, a statesman should have a passion for knowledge, a love for wisdom, and a desire to learn more by educating themselves (Doc 2, a c). Plato also believed that one should not fail from the youth up, meaning that he or she should be truthful and dedicated to one's belief (Doc 2, b). Plato also addresses that one should not have a care for money, only to show that it didn't need to be worried or stressed about (Doc 2, d). I partially agree with his idea, but I also believe that Pericles did partially fir with his ideal statesman. Pericles had goals that he wanted to strengthen his democracy so he could glorify Athens (Beck, 134). Although Pericles wanted to strengthen Athens, he very much cared about the money. He believed that increasing the pay of the public office, even though it helped the citizens who gained the pay increase, his decision does not fir with Plato's ideal statesmen. One thing that did separate him from other beliefs was that he believed that his people should be free and open, but in a sense where they still followed the laws that laid before them (Doc 1, a c). Even though Pericles cared about the money, he could still fit into a sense of what an ideal statesmen is like because he had a higher knowledge and ideas on how to make the civilization better to keep his people happy and safe from any problems that destroyed older civilizations in the past.
ReplyDeleteAlejandra Nuñez
ReplyDeleteWHAP 1Bravo
Plato was a greek philosopher that lived in the Athens during its golden age. According to Plato, the ideal statesman should have many different qualities. To start off, the ideal statesman should “appear competent to guard the laws and ways of life in society (doc 1n, a). The ideal statesman should also have knowledge in realities, superiority, fit be in control, passion, desire for knowledge, truthfulness, live without fears, fair minded, gentle, sociable, good memory, and grace (doc 1n, cdefghjklm). Plato believes that if a man is capable of having these traits that he should deserve the position. Plato thinks that philosophers should specifically own this position because they have great memories, and are capable of holding good knowledge within which they distribute to others because they are seen as wise and superior (doc 1n, cdf).
Plato was a Greek Philosopher that lived in Athens during its Golden Age. Plato's beliefs and thoughts were that a statesman should have a passion for knowledge, a full open mind of wisdom, and to have a great desire to educated not only themselves but also others (doc 2 a,c). Plato believed that the citizen should be more than truthful and dedicated to one's beliefs (doc 2 b). Even though Pericles believed that increasing the pay of the public office, it really made a difference to the citizens who gained the rise of payments. What really did separate him from other beliefs and morals was that he believed that his people should be free, had a choice, and of course open (doc 1, a,c). Pericles was not only helpful but also very truthful to the Athens. Plato's description of Pericles isn't a necessarily good one because he just cared for money and he spent lots on money on beatifying Athens as well (Beck-136). Plato had his mind set on one hing for his civilization and Pericles had another.
ReplyDeleteI a hundred percent agree with your answer. He wanted philosophers to have a strong passion for there job. Plato wanted to have his philosophers run the government because they had these characteristics.
DeleteI love how you worded this, for you had put the ATQ in the best possible form yet. I mean, you had analyzed Plato and Pericles perfectly. Also another thing I admired was that you did not shoot either down or conclude that either of the men were necessarily wrong. Instead you had just mentioned the fact that they had different methods. Great work.
DeleteAccording to Plato to be a decent ideal statesman you should have the traits of a philosopher. Philosophers have a good nature, a passion for knowledge, an open mind and cares for others instead of himself(doc 1, A,B,C,D). Plato believed that people that are empty minded are not fit to control the state(doc 1, B). Plato also believes that a philosopher's knowledge is superior to the rest and they also look into details. Pericles believes that everyone is equal before the law(doc 2,A). He thinks that anyone can spend their time how they want to. Pericles thinks that everyone is free to their private lives ,but in pubic the law is kept. to Pericles everything is open for discussion. He does not want to rush into action before consequences are properly made(doc 2, F)
ReplyDeleteI do agree with most of your observations of Pericles, but I do believe you have a little bit of misguided information on Plato. While he does state the purpose of having a passion for knowledge, a tenderness in heart, and an open mind. He does not specifically state anything about empty minded people. Being mentally blinded does not necessarily make you empty headed. It just means you do not see the truth in things and are weakened by traps set to fool you. Philosophers are reported to not be mentally blinded but instead, can see through all as though it were as clear as glass.
DeleteThree important things from the document 1 is political life, unwritten laws and own decisions, and the government in declaring there own decision. (Doc 1). It states, " A question of settling private disputes everyone is equal before the law; when it is a question of putting one person before another in a position of public responsibility (Doc 1).." This means that it kept in political obscurity because of poverty. Life is free and open. Same with our day to day life in our relations. Unwritten laws were put in authority and the laws themselves are for protection. For, the laws are acknowledged shame to break. Lastly, the government in decision made in the town is for an opinion towards something (Doc 1). The city is education to Greece. From Plato, he thinks that philosophers should run the government. There passionate, not a lover of money, good memory, fair minded, and gentle (Doc A). The love for money is low because the philosopher will be the last person to care for something else than money. Philosophers apprehended eternal and unchanging (Doc A). Would you rather want the philosophers to care about money or the ones who will do anything to help the government be at its best?
ReplyDeleteThe qualities of an ideal statesman vary beyond belief in my eyes, and yet are well defined and difficult to attain. As he lists, "And if a man is temperate and free from the love of money, meanness, pretentiousness, and cowardice, he will not be hard to deal with or dishonest"(Doc 1n, 2G) I had taken that as the advice of what an ideal statesman would not show. Yet, most people have one, if not more, of these qualities, making the goal of being an ideal statesman quite challenging to obtain. On quality that struck my eye was having wisdom, and yet the way he worded it seemed almost impossible to master. "We must not, then, count a forgetful mind as competent to pursue wisdom; we must require a good memory."(Doc 1n, 2H) As you can relate, it is almost impossible to remember everything, it is quite normal to forget, and to remember everything is an amazing ability. Another important piece of information he states is "Well, there can be no question whether a guardian who is keeping watch over anything needs to be keen-sighted or blind."(Doc 1n, 1A) With this he is stating that most of our guardians are usually not physically blind, but mentally blind form truth and reality, which are two main parts in being an ideal statesman.
ReplyDeleteIdeal statesmen were beyond the average eye. They were well defined and made it difficult to keep up with their greatness. It says "ANd if a man is temperate and free from the love of money, meaness, pretensioness, and cowardice, he will not be hard to deal with or dishonest" And to me, this just shows how the ideal statesmen came to greatness. With an attitude like this, you can easily carry yourself. Wisdom carried them, and then they drove off of that.
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