Forum #2 “The Ideal Statesman”
Directions:
1. Read, Contextualize, and ATQ:
- The Funeral Oration by Pericles - What are the ideals of Athenian democracy? - CHQ
- ATQ - In the eyes of Pericles, what are the ideals of Athenian democracy? In what ways does
Pericles exaggerate his claims?
2. Read, Contextualize, and ATQ:
- The Republic by Plato - What are the qualities of the ideal statesman? - CHQ
- ATQ - What are the qualities of an ideal statesman? According to Plato, why should
philosophers run the government?
3. Answer Questions on Blogger: Discuss the qualities of an ideal statesman according to Plato. Then decide whether Pericles fits the description of an ideal ruler. Base your conclusions on his speech and what you have read about Pericles in the class textbook.
- theidealstatesman.blogspot.com
Follow the Forum Instructions and Grading Guide located in your Google Drive. You also have a hard copy of this handout.
According to Plato the qualities of an ideal statesman are keen-sightedness, good character, experience, knowledge as a high point, inborn disposition, a passion for learning, a love for only the truth, kindness, a deep understanding of life and death, freedom from worldly desires, he must be a quick learner, have balance and be unselfish(doc 2, B-N). Based on textbook information I believe Pericles was pretty close to Plato's ideal statesman. He was all about glorifying Athens and helping its inhabitants(Beck, 134, 135). Though, when it comes to honesty, he is lacking. Pericles took large sums of money from the Delian League to buy precious stones and metal as decorations for Athens. One of Plato's standards for a statesman was complete honesty(doc 2, H). Although he did not spend any of the money on himself, which was selfless and another standard of Plato, he did steal the money. I also feel that Plato's ideals for a statesman were set too high and Pericles was better for the job than most.
ReplyDeleteYou have some good points in your answer, but there is one major thing that I disagree with. When you stated how Pericles was all about glorifying Athens and how that was a good quality of an ideal statesman, I think that goes completely against Plato’s interpretation of an ideal statesman. The main thing it goes against is how one of the qualities Plato mentioned were not being greedy or distracted. Pericles shows extreme distraction and greediness towards making Athens the nicest it can be. The statesman should focused on political matters instead of art, there are artist for that. But I do agree on what you said about how he lacked honesty, I didn’t consider that in my answer.
DeletePericles did take large sums of money to glorify Athens, but he wasn't spending it on himself, and I fell that his actions were just. He had good reasons in doing these things. He wanted Athens to be as nice as it could be. But I do feel like he should have been honest about this doing. And I disagree that the fact you thought Plato's standards were too high. This is what he thought was ideal. If the standards weren't that high then it wouldn't have been ideal. I'm not saying that you were wrong about Pericles, because no man can be a perfect statesman.
DeleteI agree with you when you state that Pericles taking the money was selfless. He used the money to beautify the city and not for something such as buying a new house. He should have told the public what he was going to use the money for though. A statesman should alert the public of anything that he is going to do and let them vote on it, because they are a democracy.
DeleteI agree on how Pericles used the money that he stole improve Athens but he didn't use it to buy precious stone and glorify Athens.He used the money instead to improve Athens army and navy.Also I agree that he focused on glorifying and lacked the honesty to just tell the people that he needed the means of money to improve the navy.But mostly I agree that Pericles was just the man who could handle Athens than most other statesman.
DeleteI agree with what you said but I don't really think keen-sightedness need's to be one of the qualities of an ideal statesman. He sais it does not matter if you are keen-sightedness or blind, if you are smarter you will rule. I do agree with what you said about how he was lacking honesty. I wouldn't really agree that they were similar because Plato had more rules but were in ways similar.
DeleteI agree with your statement about Pericles stealing money being dishonest. Though he had good intention, it was still wrong of him to steal and lie. In my opinion, his dishonesty, among other things, makes him unqualified. I had not considered this fact in my answer. I also agree that Plato's standards were set too high, making most people not qualified.
DeletePlato’s qualities of an ideal statesman are passion for: understanding of reality and situation, so he/she knows what to do; knowledge and education, to make smart decisions; open mindedness, so person isn’t restricted to set of ideas; unselfish and not greedy, so decisions aren’t based of money and profit; justice, so nothing is unfair for anyone; courage, so they can make hard decisions; temperance, so they can focus on their job; also, the statesman must have a good memory and must be quick to learn (doc 2 a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o).
ReplyDeletePericles somewhat fits the description of an ideal ruler based on his action when he ruled. Pericles was kind of in the middle between an ideal statesman. He did have much passion for strong mindset, knowledge, justice, and courage, but he was greedy and distracted. The good traits were very apparent in his decision for a direct government by making public officials have a salary so anyone could run for it. Some of the bad traits were being too focused on money and too attached to glorifying Athens (Beck 134 135).
I agree with the traits you listed for an ideal statesman. I feel you covered all the main aspects of Plato's ideal statesman and I also agree with most of your comment. But, I do not think Pericles was a greedy, distracted man. I feel that he did his best to follow all of Plato's guidelines and maybe he didn't completely think through the idea of stealing money from the Delian League. This doesn't make him a greedy person. I believe he was a smart person with a moment of ignorance.
DeleteI also agree with the fact that one decision doesn't make a person who he/she is. But I agree that Pericles was mostly a good leader, except for just a few times. He was a good leader and he mostly stayed within Plato's high set standards. Plato also wasn't very attached to glorifying Athens, he just made it a priority for Athens to look nice, and presentable.
DeleteSydney Smyer
DeleteI agree with the characteristics you listed for Plato's ideal statesman. I agree that everyone of Plato's stated qualities had a divine purpose in the chosen individual to be a leader in the country. Also, I hold the same opinion that he fell in the middle of the "ideal statesman", however I do not agree that Pericles' demeanor can be marked as "greedy" or "distracted". I believe him to be a man and leader who thought highly of his country and relished its glorification, which would be a desire of a figurehead who loved and adored his people and the land they walked on. The artwork and constructions he had produced throughout Athens show that he took care to depict beauty and comfort because he saw that his people deserved nothing less. Yes, he did steal from the Delian League to bring about all of these things, but I agree with Cory that he had a moment of ignorance and I do not believe this one instance should be a representation of his overall character concerning his statesmanship. Conclusively, I think "greedy" and "distracted" were not appropriate words. I think he was unworldly, or ignorant, to things not relative to his people rather.
According to Plato, the qualities of an ideal statesman is a clearer view, knowledge, and is excellence of character. Philosophers in his mind should run the government because there whole life is devoted to the knowledge and clear view of life. He does not care if they are blind or keen-sighted, he wants the mental strength and not the physical (doc 2. b,c,d). In the eyes of Pericles, the ideals of an Athenian democracy is power and equality. He basically said that it does not matter if you are poor or rich, that if you are the smarter one you will be the one who rules (doc 1,a). You also are free to make your own choices in your households and and don't have to go by the rules, but once you are in public affairs you have to follow the rules (doc 1,e). In their democracy, they tend to all go by their own rules. He is exaggerating his statement because he is saying the worst thing you can do is rush into action and as long as you don’t do that, you will be fine (doc 1,c).
ReplyDeleteI agree with the qualities of an ideal statesmen according to Plato, philosophers dedicate their lives to learn more about anything and everything. Wisdom is an important quality to be an ideal statesmen.I also agree that Pericles wanted equality between all people. I disagree with you on Pericles's over exaggeration because rushing into action without thinking of the outcome or consequence is a bad thing to do if you were a leader of an empire.
DeleteI agree and disagree. I see what your saying about not physical strength but mental strength and that its not about looks or class but who's best fit for the job. But, even though one man may be better for the job, a different man less qualified may be chosen due to class and rank because of more popularity. Even though money and physical traits shouldn't matter the more attractive or richer man will be chosen.
DeleteI agree with you. The qualities of an idea statesmen are clear in your argument. Pericles' did not provide ideal qualities because he doesn't care about the rich or poor. He cares more about people being free to do what they want. But they need control.
DeleteI agree with you because Pericles wants equality for all the people. As Anastasia stated he did not care what social class you were in. If you were in the lowest social class and were competing against someone in the highest social class for control of the government, Pericles would choose the lower class if he had better knowledge of Athenian Democracy and the concept of government.
DeletePlato has said that the ideal statesman is someone that is a guardian of justice, honor, and goodness (Doc 2 A, B). This ruler should be truthful, to the point that they have a hatred of falsehood and only speak the truth (Doc 2 D). They shouldn't love money or be attached to anything like money (Doc 2 E). They should also have a good mind with measure (Doc 2 G, H). They should also be focused on the full apprehension of reality (Doc 2 I).
ReplyDeletePericles was the definition of what Plato thought was a good leader. He was honest and just and was exactly what Plato described (Beck 134). He established a stronger democracy and only a just man could have done that. The only thing that wasn't what Plato thought would be a good ruler was that he wasn't a philosopher. His democracy was set with standards that the people should care about their city, and if you don't you shouldn't be part of it (Doc 1 D, E, F, G). This showed a deep passion for his country and his city. I think that Pericles was a great leader of Athens and that you don't need to be a philosopher to be the ideal statesman.
Sydney Smyer
DeleteI agree that you do not need to be a philosopher to be the ideal statesman because, indeed, he had traits of a great leader that did not stem from knowledge, but from the passion he had for his job and his people. Your perspective may trump Plato's "ideal statesman" because regardless if a person is intelligent, great and considerable things will not be achieved if the leader does not have the will and fervor to carry them out, or in other words, the figurehead needs more than the gentle nature and the ability to think of grand ideas that Plato depicts as his "ideal statesman".
Plato seeked an ideal statesmen who had a love for the truth and a hatred of falsehood, knowledge, and someone who would be able to think logically.(doc2,C). He believed that philosophers should run society because they would make decisions and laws based on what was best for the people, rather then on personal preference or for their own benefit. Pericles, although he ran a successful democracy, did not fit Plato's vision as an ideal statesmen because according to Plato, "If a man is temperate and free from the love of money,meanness,pretentiousness, and cowardice, he will not be hard to deal with or dishonest"(doc2,F) Pericles definatley had a love for money because without approval of the Delian League, he took money to buy gold,ivory,and marble.To continue, Pericles exaggerates "the power which our city possesses and which is been won by those qualities" (doc1,F) He fails to mention the true reality Athens may face when it comes to war,high poverty rates, or any other disaster.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you on the qualities of an ideal statesmen, but i have to disagree with you on what you said about Pericles having the love for money. He didn’t take money from the Delian League for his own pleasures , he did it for the people of Athens. The money went to the artists, architects, and workers who used the materials on building the Parthenon which was one of noblest works along with other works of art.
DeleteAccording to Plato, the qualities of an ideal statesman are that he is not greedy, he has a lust for attaining knowledge, they already have knowledge, ignorant men can't be a statesman, and the man is not afraid of death. Plato believes that philosophers should run the government, because they have obtained and shown these qualities that he refers too. He opposes though, that other men are blind and can't be a statesman, because they are ignorant of the world (Doc 2 a-h). Pericles believes that an ideal statesman can be anyone as long as he does the job well, which almost means that he does not believe in social class. He then goes on to say that he has to be openly honest and have an interest for everyone (Doc 1 a-g). Pericles lies about being honest, because he ended up stealing money from the Delian League that he used to beautify the city (Beck, 134). This means that he exaggerated that the statesman should be honest.
ReplyDeleteI agree on your description of what Plato believed the qualities of an ideal statesman should be. In addition to what he said, is "philosophers are those who can apprehend the eternal and unchanging," (Doc 2 a). Also he said, "competent to guard the laws and ways of life in society," (Doc 1 b). Another thing he believed was to strive after whole truth. "cannot fail, from his youth up, to strive after the whole truth," (Doc 2 i)
DeleteThe Qualities of an ideal statesmen according to Plato’s writing would have to have a clear pattern of the perfect truth, a passion for any new knowledge, truthfulness, love of wisdom, not a lover of money, fair minded, and a quick learner to pursue wisdom(Doc2 A B C D E F G I). Pericles does fit some of the criteria of what Plato’s qualities of being an ideal statesmen. Pericles was dedicated to glorifying Athens, not only by making athens beautiful but by strengthening the Athenian Democracy(Beck 134). He wanted the power to be in the hands of the people, everyone to be equal, and that citizens ruled directly(Doc1 B) Pericles didn’t seem to have the passion to learn more about the truth of the world. He had a mindset of strengthening and glorifying athens. Not for himself but for the people of Athens.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you when you say that he wanted to strengthen the government and everyone to be equal. He even states that poor people can run for the council if they are good for the job. I like how you say that he wanted the people to have power. Pericles even says that your neighbors opinions are to be respected and that you can't judge them for their opinions. Pericles was definitely the people's leader and you can tell they respected him as he respected them.
DeleteI agree on how you said that he did improve on glorifying Athens but also that he strengthened the democracy of Athens.He also improved the power of Athens army as well but what I think is that Plato's ideal of statesman was a bit too high and he did fit in some of the categories which makes him the right person for the job.You should also consider on how he acquired the money to glorify Athens and improve its democracy.
DeleteI agree with what you said on how Pericles was not really doing much to make Athens beautiful. The one thing I do have a question is what about Plato. You go on about how Pericles is not the best choice but you also don't describe why Plato was either.
DeleteI agree that Plato's writing provided a clear vision of a statesmen because they have knowledge truthfulness and wisdom. Pericles was not a good fit for ruling because of his unwillingly to learn, or have knowledge of the truth of the world.
DeleteI agree with Michael, and Brock Pericles wanted everyone to have equal rights, and wanted the power in the hands of the citizens directly. His only mindset was to make sure the people were given the equality they deserved. Pericles fit every description other than not being open minded to the truth of the world.
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ReplyDeleteSydney Smyer
ReplyDeleteAccording to Plato, the ideal statesman is one who is highly knowledgeable because, in his eyes, that was a man's greatest point of superiority. Furthermore, he notes that one who is knowledgeable is keen sighted, for a people would not find a "blind' man sufficient to preside over their commonwealth. Additionally, he states that this keen sight is precedent to the justice, honor, and goodness that makes a great leader. On another note, one trait of the ideal statesman is the passion for knowledge, none being regarded as negligible or insignificant. This trait is that of a wise man, and akin to wisdom and truth. Similarly, one who is truthful is free from the love of money, meanness, greed, pretentiousness, and cowardice; a fair-minded, gentle, and sociable individual. Overall, Plato believed that likable characteristics would branch from knowledge and that if knowledge was not present those traits would not, ideally, follow. Also, an important judge of character suitable to Plato for the position is his memory capabilities because one who is forgetful will dislike and become unenthused in a job that requires memory, whereas one that has good memory will appreciate the occupation and strive to do well for the good of the people. Plato concludes by assessing the qualities of the mind of the ideal statesman, or philosopher, based on whether or not anyone of the country would settle for anything less in a potential authority figure (doc. 2, A, B, C, D, E,).
I do not think Pericles wholly fits the description of Plato's ideal ruler because he did steal from the Delian League and theft and negligence would not be a fit characteristic within Plato’s ideals. Also, he held pretentiousness, a trait, according to Plato, that would not stem from the ideal statesman, or philosopher, based on his exaggerated claims (doc. 1, E, F). However, Pericles held ideals of his own that he became well known for in his efforts to set the foundation for Athenian democracy, one being equality. In setting private disputes everyone is equal before the law and position of public responsibility was decided based on ability, not class. A key aspect of Athenian democracy, stated by Pericles, is obedience to those positioned to govern and the law itself (doc. 2, A, B, C, D).
According to Plato the qualities of an ideal statesman would require the need to have passion for learning,truthfulness,graciousness,inborn disposition,freedom from worldly desires,keen eyed with justice,a quick learner and also require good memory(Doc 2, A-L).The characteristic for an ideal statesman that Plato described didn't wholly fit Pericles because he focused on beautifying Athens that he just used tons of money to improve Athens and it's army.But Pericles acquired those money by using the funds of the government and also stealing the money from the treasury of the Delian league(Beck,135).Thus making Pericles break the ideal of true statesman and also ignoring the passion for knowledge.The only thing that he followed based on his speech was that "we give our obedience to those whom we put positions of authority,and we obey the law themselves(Doc 1, b)."But at the same time he defied the law and kept obeying only one of this principle.
ReplyDeleteI disagree, I believe Pericles did fit the description in which Plato described. A few things Pericles said was that power is equal, "power is in the hands not of a minority but of the whole people," (Doc 1). Also he believed everyone is equal, and to obey authority, "We give our obedience to those whom we put in positions of authority," (Doc 1). It says that they keep the law. He also believed that they should obey the laws themselves.
DeleteI agree with what you said, especially about Pericles not completely fitting Plato's ideal statesman description. All the money went into improving Athens, which he later glorified, and he paid no mind to the intense passion for knowledge he was SUPPOSED to have.
DeleteAccording to Plato, the qualities of a statesmen are great amount of knowledge, truthfulness, and hold an abundance of wisdom. Plato explains that "knowledge is perhaps the greatest point of superiority." ( Doc 1, A) Knowledge provides experience and excellence in character. "Truthfulness, a love of truth and a hatred of false hood that will not tolerate untruth in any form." (Doc 1, b) If one is not truthful then they cannot contain wisdom, Plato explained. They're wisdom would be in falsehood. "The love of wisdom is more than a mere pretense" (Doc 2, d) Without wisdom you wouldn't have any love for anything, money or pleasure. These qualities take full part in the apprehension of reality and make the best statesmen for the people.
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DeleteI agree with the statement that "knowledge is perhaps the greatest point of superiority," but I believe that that particular point was exaggerated. Also, there is question about what was stated about wisdom, or lack thereof.
DeleteThe ideal statesman according to Plato was they guard laws and life, they were knowledgeable, and strive after the whole truth. They also are not a lover of money, they do not overlook meaness, not mean or cowardly, and they have a good memory. Overall, they were equal and judged fairly. Also, they worked hard, were smart, and did their work. They would not slack off, only live up to their expectations. Plato thought they were the best of the best, and would not disappoint anyone. He knew that everyone would trust them, and agree to all of their values. They only did good and treated everyone equal (Doc 2). I believe Pericles fit the definition of an ideal ruler because he is everything Plato described.
ReplyDeletePlato had very high qualities for an ideal statesman. He wants a person who’s knowledgeable, truthful, has no desires, isn’t greedy, not afraid of death, loves no one, who isn’t forgetful, and who’s graceful, fair, gentle and social (doc 2, B - L). I believe Pericles, as a philosopher, would not fit Plato’s description very well. In Pericles’ funeral oration, he was very truthful and selfless, and was definitely gentle, fair, and social. And while it’s obvious Pericles is quite knowledgeable, he does not follow the same mind set as Plato. Plato wants a ruler who can lead a well-built society, but Pericles wants a democracy where everyone is equal under the law and an average person is not better than another (doc 1, A). That being said, Pericles would not fit the description of an ideal statesman that Plato gave.
ReplyDeleteI think Plato had a descriptive idea of what an ideal statesman would be. In the article, Plato describes a statesman is suppose to be knowledgeable, keen-sighted, honorable, fearless, and a good memory (Doc. 1N a-e). I think according to Plato's description, Pericles is an "ideal statesman". Pericles states that the Athenian Democracy should let the people have the power. He also claims that the behavior of the Athenian people reflect on the city (Doc. 1m a & e). This shows that Pericles is knowledgeable about the Athenian Democracy, that he honors the city by making others honor it as well, and that he is fearless of the ideas of others. That being said, I think Pericles was a great example of what Plato had in mind for an ideal statesman.
ReplyDeletePlato had a very good description of what an "ideal statesman" was. Plato stated that such a person should be truthful, honest, wise, with a great passion for learning, keen eyed, as a "blind" man would not be sufficient enough to do the job (Doc. 2n a-e). Furthermore being keen sighted meant great knowledge and wisdom. Pericles was not open minded, he had one mindset and that was to give power to the people, have equal rights, and let the people rule directly. Plato also says that an "ideal statesman" shall be a guardian of justice, honor, and goodness (Doc. 2n a). Plato thinks that a philosopher should be the person to run the government because, they not only have good character but live and learn strictly about life. Although no matter what social class a person may be in, the one that posses better knowledge will end up being chosen (Doc. 1m a-b). I feel that Pericles fits the description Plato had talked about and described.
ReplyDeleteI agree with many of your statements. Pericles had a specific mindset towards a specific type of person, one who could be a proper statesman.
DeleteAccording to Plato, the ideal statesman would actually be one of two types: those who are philosophers and those who are not. Based on this, he states that whoever is “keen-sighted or blind”(doc. 2, e) which means that they would need to see all of what goes on or nothing at all. And of course the ideal statesman would also have a “love of truth and a hatred of falsehood.” And in a slightly exaggerated bias towards philosophers, he says that “it would be absurd” not to choose them because of their superior knowledge.(doc. 2, n)
ReplyDeleteAthenian democracy was similar to our current form of government, but there are some differences. First, there was direct power to the citizens (Doc 1, b). People spoke for themselves, not through a representative but when someone actually had to be put in a higher position, people were selected by the things that they could do, rather than popularity.People were expected to respect the law and authority, and were also expected to be involved with not only themselves and their families. They also always thought before they took action; Pericles said: “the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated (Doc 1)”.The major quality Plato focuses on for an ideal statesman is a constant “pursuit of wisdom (Doc 2, c)”, which must be backed up by other basic qualities like kindness, bravery, sociability, fairness, and honesty. i do not think that Pericles exaggerated any of his claims. But Since some people can’t be given that much power, but Ancient Greece was much, much smaller than many of the nations that exist today, therefore easier to control. Plato claims that philosophers should run the government, and philosophers were known to make positive changes in society.
ReplyDeleteYour statements are all valid and I extremely agree with your claim about Plato's focus for an ideal statesman being the "pursuit for wisdom." He said that knowledge makes for superiority and really stressed the fact that intelligence was a must.
DeletePlato believed that an ideal statesmen should, first, always be truthful and have an insatiable hunger for knowledge. He stated that, “knowledge is perhaps their greatest point of superiority,” which just backs up my claim (doc 2, A). The statesman should also have a philosophical mindset; he should have a passion for knowledge and should not care for money, “going with the flow,” if you will. In addition to that, a statesman should practice selflessness and honesty, some characteristics that are just good for any person to have.
ReplyDeleteThough Pericles was a very intellectual and brave, I don’t think that he fits the description of an ideal statesman because, as said in the textbook, he increased the number of officials who were paid in order to strengthen the democracy, something that an ideal statesman wouldn’t have done (Beck, 134). Even though he didn’t spend said money on himself, which was selfless, he did steal it and that goes against the “honesty” part of being an ideal statesman.