Forum #2 “The Ideal Statesman”
Directions:
1. Read, Contextualize, and ATQ:
- The Funeral Oration by Pericles - What are the ideals of Athenian democracy? - CHQ
- ATQ - In the eyes of Pericles, what are the ideals of Athenian democracy? In what ways does
Pericles exaggerate his claims?
2. Read, Contextualize, and ATQ:
- The Republic by Plato - What are the qualities of the ideal statesman? - CHQ
- ATQ - What are the qualities of an ideal statesman? According to Plato, why should
philosophers run the government?
3. Answer Questions on Blogger: Discuss the qualities of an ideal statesman according to Plato. Then decide whether Pericles fits the description of an ideal ruler. Base your conclusions on his speech and what you have read about Pericles in the class textbook.
- theidealstatesman.blogspot.com
Follow the Forum Instructions and Grading Guide located in your Google Drive. You also have a hard copy of this handout.
According to Plato there are specific qualities a statesmen should have. The first quality Is they should be a philosopher preferably (Doc.2 A). He believes that a statesmen should be a philosopher because the contain all of the right qualities. First of all they need to have a love for knowledge and learning (doc2 D).Secondly they need to have a love for truthfulness (Doc2 F). Plato believes philosophers have these qualities and other qualities that make a good statesmen. Plato also feels a statement should be fair minded and gentle (Doc2 H). Finally he believes all statesmen need to be unselfish, gracious, and the friend of truth, justice, courage and temperance ( Doc2 I). Based on Plato’s description Pericles wasn't a perfect statesman. Pericles was very selfish in the fact that he made be people follow his laws even if they didn't want to. Plato believed a statesmen should be a philosopher and Pericles was not q philosopher. Even though I don't think he meets Plato's standards Pericles does meet some of them, such as being very wise and truthful ( Beck 134).
ReplyDeleteElena Pena
DeleteI agree and yet disagree with you with the fact that you said Pericles was truthful. Although I think otherwise, in the way that you looked at it with him being truthful with meeting Plato's standards. In other words he was not truthful to his people because in a way he used them to get what he wanted- to hold and gain power. However I completely understand and see in what point of view you saw it.
I agree with you on Plato's characteristics of an ideal statesman. He should be trustworthy, truthful, love knowledge, as well as be open minded and gentle. However I do not agree with you when you say that Pericles was truthful. He lied and stole money from the league to strengthen the navy and beatify Athens. However he was wise with making democracy stronger in Greece.
DeleteI agree when you begin discussing that the statesmen should preferably be a philosopher because they "contain all of the right qualities." I also agree that Pericles wasn't a "perfect statesmen;" I agree with this because of his selfish way like when he took money without telling the Delian League and, like you said, that he made the people follow his laws. Your last sentence was what I truly agree with, although he wasn't a philosopher, he still met a good amount of Plato's requirements.
DeleteI agree with you when you state that Pericles was a very selfish because he made people follow his law when they didn't want to. I also agree with you characteristics of the ideal statesmen, And that Pericles did meet some of Plato's requirements . But I have to disagree with you when you said Pericles was honest, because he lied for the good of his army. By stealing money from the Delian League.
DeleteElena Pena
ReplyDeleteAccording to the Plato Statesman is a ruler that is has a passion for knowledge with an excellent desire for learning with outstanding skills to do so (doc 2 a-c-f). Not only that, but they should be a truthful person to trust around money and lavishly expenses without them being ambitions around it (Doc 2 b-d-e). However, a mean, cowardly man with no wisdom and love for power and money is all the characteristics that describe Pericles (beck 134). Which is an example of the kind of leader they would never see an ideal ruler. For he hungered for power with the hold of empire and an ideal ruler shouldn’t rule with such cruel desires; for the people need a ruler willing to rule with kindness thinking others rather than selfish desires (beck 134-135, Doc 2 a1-a2).
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ReplyDeletePlato believes that an ideal ruler should be truthful and not tolerate of any untruthfulness in any form. He also states that a good ruler should have a lot of knowledge and not lack any qualifications in anyway. He need to be fair minded, gentle and sociable. He should be free from the love of money, meanness, pretentiousness, and cowardice. (doc 2 b,e,f,g). I think Pericles did not fit the description of an ideal ruler because, he was not fair minded he did not treat everyone the same .He was a lover of money. He did not care about his peoples opinions and thoughts, Also he did not want everybody evolved in their affairs and the states. However i think he had knowledge on how to rule his city/state. (doc1 a,b,c,d,f).
ReplyDeleteI disagree pericles actually did something good by creating a strong army to make sure the waterways were safe to trade. Although the traits plato was, wasn't showed always shown by pericles, i think pericles lived up to what plato wanted as an ideal statesman. (Doc 2 c,o)
DeleteI disagree with you. I think Pericles did a good job at leading Athens, it happens to be a great city in Greece. Pericles made a good strong army to be on top and the best city in that country.
DeleteI agree with you when you stated that "Plato believes that an ideal ruler should be truthful and not tolerate of any untruthfulness in any form.." However I disagree with you on the Pericles part. Pericles was fair-minded, honest, and sociable (Beck,134). I don't think he was to much of a money lover. "Pericles used the money from the league’s treasury to make the Athenian navy the strongest in the Mediterranean"(Beck 135). He put most of the money towards the navy so the empire would be safe and well protected.
DeleteI disagree with you when you said that he didn’t treat everyone the same, because he did. When Pericles was in rule he introduced the direct democracy which given the citizens more rights and allowed them to be more involved in the politics. I also disagree with you when you said he didn’t care about peoples thoughts and opinions, because he allowed them to give input on political laws and how thing should be dealt with. He also said that if someone didn’t care to give their input on the things involving the public then they had no right to live there. So Pericles did care about their thoughts and opinion maybe a little too much.
DeleteI agree with your thoughts on what Plato stated but I do not agree with your opinion on Pericles. Pericles was honest and fair to his people. During his reign, Pericles strengthened democracy by increasing the number of public officials who were paid salaries (Beck 134). This way, even the members at the bottom of the social class could hold public offices. Pericles also introduced direct democracy, which allowed the people of Athens to have a voice and a say in government (Beck 135). Through these tactics, Pericles showed that he cared about his people and what they had to say.
DeleteThe ideal statesman in plato's eyes are a quick passion for learning , honesty,kindness ,unselfish,freedom wordily desires ,and experience .Pericles was not a perfect match but would almost pass plato's standards. He wasn't the most honest man ,he stole a,lot of money to decorate the anthens with gold,ivory,and marble.but at least he used some of his intelligence by using money to create a powerful navy.To make sure the waterways were secured for trading.He was experienced by being described asa skillful politician,inspiring speaker, and a respectful general.I think pericles wanted to live by plato's expectations as an ideal statesman. Everyone falls and eventually gets back up.Such as pericles.He did his part well by making the athens one of the greatest city states in ancient greeece.
ReplyDelete(Doc 1 and 2 a-f,g-n)
I fully agree with you. I think Pericles did not meet all the "requirements" of being a good leader, but he did a good job leading Athens into a great state in Greece. Plato did expect a lot in leaders or philosophers.
DeleteAccording to Plato characteristics of an ideal statesman is to be truthfull, honest, trustworthy, gracefull, fair minded, all that make up a great leader and a good statesman in Platos eyes (doc 2, c, f, h). Plato thinks that in order to be a good states man he cannot have a slight of meanness, pettiness, coward ness, or dishonest to his people (doc 2, e). I think Pericles was a good leader but not one that meets the qualities of Plato. Pericles made great changes to Greece, he made everyone equal and respected one another (doc 1, b). But Plato thought of a philosopher, Pericles was not a philosopher he was a leader. I think Pericles was a good leader but also very selfish. He met some of the ideal of being a good leader but not all.
ReplyDeleteI agree with the characteristics of an ideal statesman you've listed. Plato was against meanness and dishonesty. "Again, in seeking distinguish the philosophic nature you must not overlook the least touch of meanness"(doc2,c). Meaning Plato doesn't approve or believe in disrespecting others. Another characteristic that caught my attention was fair-minded. "So as another indication of the philosophic temper, you will observe whether, from youth up, he is fair-minded, gentle, and sociable"(doc2,d). This means that the statesman has to be able to talk in a calm matter and hear out people opinions that live in the city.
DeleteI agree with your statements on both Plato and Pericles. Plato listed several qualities which he believed a leader should have, and Pericles did have. However, Plato also explained that he believed a philosopher should govern the people of Athens. Although Pericles was a fair and honest ruler, he was no philosopher. I do however, disagree with your comment on Pericles being selfish. Pericles showed that he cared about his people creating direct democracy and by putting money towards the Athenian navy (Beck 135). Through doing these things, Pericles showed that he wanted his people to have a voice and that he cared about them enough to want to protect them.
DeleteThe king of the city, Plato like education he allowed Greece to have the privilege to learn. He also believed in honesty, respect, and unselfishness. He wanted his people to be smart and educated. There was also a flaw, Pericles liked to take from the people, gold, ivory, and marvel. He used these things to create a strong navy. This is how they took over the islands. They both argued to each other, explaining witch is more important, education, or military. At the end Athens was known as a great city. Even through the city had gone though some rough times, they began to pull through.
ReplyDeleteI definitely agree with some of the qualifications you stated. But I disagree with two of the reasons why Pericles is not considered the idea statesmen. The first thing I disagree with is your statement saying Pericles took gold,ivory and marvel from his people because he didn't. Athens during Pericles rule was very known for gold, ivory and marvel. The second statement I disagree with is They both argued to each other. I don't agree with this statement because Plato was born almost one hundred years before Pericles rule, so they never even met.
DeleteI agree with most of the traits you used to describe each ruler, but some of your information seems off. Plato wasn’t really a “king”. He was a philosopher. When people say “king” it sounds like someone is large, high-class, and mean. But Plato just wanted a complete understanding of knowledge within the city. (Doc 2 A, B) Also, I think you should add more about how Pericles looked at warfare and the military more than Plato. Going off of what Lenai said, it’s true how Plato and Pericles never met. Pericles died in 429 BC and Plato was born 427 BC. Your information is good, but not as accurate.
DeletePlato's characteristics of an ideal statesman is that he has to have knowledge that is his strongest points, and that he has a contestant passion for new knowledge he can use to rule better (doc #2, B, C). As well as he has to be trustworthy, fair minded, gentle, good memory, and sociable (doc #2, D, F). I do not believe that Pericles fits Plats ideals of an ideal statesman, he was not trustworthy because had had taken money from the leagues treasury and used it to make the strongest navy, as well as glorify Athens. Then he turned around and treated the league like they were part of the empire.(Beck, 135). So I do not believe that Pericles was a great statesman, although he was good with forming a stronger democracy in Greece.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you I think that Pericles was not the ideal statesman that Plato describe, although he did run Athens very well it wasn’t the way that Plato described. I also agree with you that he didn’t have some of the ideals needed, because he took the money from the Delian League without them knowing and for his own needs. He is not consider to be a good person at this point, because he stole the money and used it for his own reasons.
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ReplyDeletePlato believed that a statesmen should have certain qualities or ideals. He believed that they should be selfless and have no desire for money (doc2, h,j). They you should also have a love for knowledge, Plato believed knowledge is greatest point of superiority (doc2, b,c). Another ideal is that they should be truthful and have a strong hatred falsehood so much that they will only ever tell the truth (doc2, o). I don’t that Pericles fits the description for the ideal statesmen, because he doesn’t have all of the qualities that one needs. For example, he has a desire for money and isn’t selfless. Pericles took money from the Delian League to buy gold, ivory and marble so that he could “beautify” Athens. This also made him untruthful, because he took the money without telling the Delian League (Beck, 135). In conclusion, I don’t believe that Pericles would be considered an Ideal statesmen, because he doesn’t achieve most of the main ideals needed to be one.
I agree with you on the ideals that Plato had for a statesman. You listed the main characteristics of what a statesman should have. I also agree with you that Pericles doesn't for Plato's characteristics of an ideal statesman.He did steal from the league without asking and that's what made him not trustworthy.
DeleteI agree with you when you say that Pericles has a desire for money and that he was selfish. I also agree with the characteristics you listed because these were the most important ones that Plato listed in the article. Plato did list multiple other characteristics but these seemed to be the most important and necessary ones that a statesmen should attain. I disagree with you when you say that Pericles was overall not a good statesmen because besides his selfish ways, he was a great statesmen.
DeleteAccording to Plato has list many qualities of an ideal statesman. One the qualities are honesty. A love of truthfulness and a hatred for falsehood(doc2,b). Meaning that you love the truth and you like being one hundred percent honest and you have no passion for false statements or answers. Another quality is knowledge. “Also you will not fail to notice whether he is quick or slow to learn…”(doc2,e). Plato thinks that being wise is part in his ideal statesman. Overall Plato's traits of a ideal statesman is unselfish, wise, honest, and respectful(doc2,a,b,c,d,g). Pericles did fit most of the requirements for Plato’s ideal statesman. Pericles was sociable honest and fair-minded(Beck,134). The city was safe from hunger as long as ships could sail into port with supplies from Athenian colonies and foreign states(Beck,137).Pericles keep the empire safe and kept the city from suffering. Pericles was a great statesman.
ReplyDeletei agree with you on the part where you say Pericles was a great statesman and fit most of the traits of being a great statesman . However I don't think he was honest or fair-minded. His not honest because he took money from the Delian League to buy gold, ivory and marble. His not fair-minded because he made people follow his laws even if they didn't want to. So no I don't like he was honest or fair-minded.
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ReplyDeleteIn the eyes of Pericles, the ideals of an Athenian democracy are that the power is not only in the government, but also in the people (doc1, A) and that just because someone is in poverty, does not mean they cannot be in a government position (doc1, B). His claims are slightly exaggerated because it seems like he is very cocky and much more than proud, I see this when he states, "I declare that our city is an education to Greece," (doc1, E) Pluto believes a good statesman is someone that watches over the city (doc1, A), has a passion for knowledge (doc1, B), is truthful (doc1, C), has a desire for the job (doc1, D), is fair-minded, gentle, sociable, (doc1, F) is unselfish, gracious, and courageous (doc1, I). Pluto also thought that an ideal statesmen needed to have a "genuine pursuit of wisdom," (doc1, E) and also a "mind endowed with measure and grace," (doc1, H). Pericles did not meet all of the requirements because he was very selfish and loved money, he took the money and did not tell the Delian League (Beck, 135), other than his few flaws, he was a good statesmen.
ReplyDeleteFirst off Kasey, I think you mean “Plato” not “Pluto, but besides that, good job on what you said. I agree with all of it. I just want to add some more things though. You did say that Pericles wanted an Athenian “Democracy”. This is true, and Plato wanted a Republic ruled by a philosopher. (Beck, 138) The main difference is that Pericles’ direct democracy was about ruling and defeating all others with warfare, and Plato wanted a Republic that was about bringing the people together and understanding each other. (Doc 2 A, B, C) A republic is also a state where power is held in the people and their elected representatives. So Kasey, you did good I just wanted to add that.
DeletePlato held several high expectations for an ideal statesman. Plato believed that a ruler must be competent to guard laws and ways of life in society and has a desire for truthfulness (doc 1. a, d, e). Plato also believed that a statesman should not be a lover of money, not be mean, and will be fair, social, gracious, and quick to learn (doc 2. f, h, i,l). Pericles met all these requirements as he was honest and fair, a skillful politician, and respected general (Beck 134). Pericles also cared a good amount about his people. He created direct democracy so his people would have a voice and put money towards the Athenian navy, so his people would be protected (Beck 135). Although Pericles may have met the listed requirements, there was one he did not meet. Plato explained that a philosopher should govern a city as they contain knowledge and focus their lives on discovering the truth. Even though Pericles met all of Plato's other requirements, he was no philosopher.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you that Pericles meet almost all but not all of Plato’s requirements for being an ideal statesman. Though he wasn’t a philosopher he did cause many accomplishments that were greater than being in the search of knowledge. Due to Pericles being ruler, he was able to encourage art and architecture (Beck 136). I believe that counts for something more than just searching for knowledge, it is letting other people explore their full potential.
DeletePlato was a man interested in philosophy. He wanted a Republic ruled by a philosopher. It would be based on socials classes of artisans and farmers, warriors, and the ruling class. (Beck, 138) He wanted good things to come towards everybody in the city and not just one person. In a ruler, a trait he looked for was someone who looked out for people and was willing to listen to other ideas. His main focus was that all citizens of the city work together to create an equal and peaceful place. (Doc 2 A,B, C) There are many reasons why I don’t think Pericles is an ideal ruler. First, Pericles wanted a democracy. More specifically, a direct democracy which is when citizens rule directly. (Beck, 135) Pericles also only wanted luxury things like money and war machines. (Beck, 136) He only wanted to show off the Athens and be known as their amazing leader. Plato wanted a city of understanding people who were smart and thought about their actions. (Doc 2 B, D) Pericles wanted to be fair with his citizens but not as nice as Plato.
ReplyDeleteI would have to disagree with you; Pericles wasn’t only interested in money and in glorifying himself. If that was the case why would he care to make a speech to lift-up the spirits of his warriors, I believe he truthfully cared about his people. In the book it says that “Pericles was well known for his political achievements as leader of Athens. Pericles the man, however, was harder to know. One historian wrote: ‘[He] no doubt, was a lonely man. . . . He had no friend . . . [and] he only went out [of his home] for official business’” (Beck 135). This shows he was dedicated to his work and in caring for his people.
DeletePlato believed that an ideal statesman should have a few specific qualities. First, he believed that an ideal statesman should be a philosopher. (Doc 1, A) He then believed they should have some wisdom about things, be truthful, a love for the truth, and a hatred for lies. (Doc 1, B,C) He also included that they should be able to think things clearly. (Doc 1, A) Lastly, he believed that they should have a good memory, can't overlook little matters, and must be free from the love of money. (Doc 1, D, E, F, G) Pericles met some of these standards, but not all. He had a passion for power and money and was a cruel ruler. He created laws people did not like and forced them to obey them. Thus, causing Pericles to not be able to fit the role of an ideal statesman. (Beck 134)
ReplyDeleteAccording to Plato the deal statesman was someone who was adaptable, was knowledgeable, was truthful, he had to be committed, as well as selfless. Plato mentions that they should be able to “apprehend the eternal and unchanging” (Doc 2 A). He also mentions that they have to be knowledgeable and eager to keep on learning, “a constant passion for any knowledge” (Doc 2 C). He also had to be committed to the people, willing to “abandon those pleasure of which the body is instrument and be concerned only with the please which the soul enjoys independently” (Doc 2 E). He mentions that the man should be “temperate and free from love of money, meanness, pretentiousness, and cowardice, he will not be hard to deal with or dishonest” (Doc 2 H). Pericles does fit into some of the descriptions Plato has of the ideal statesman. He shows he is adaptable when he shows that the power is in the hands of the people, majority rules (Doc 1 A). He shows great commitment to his city-state he says “we obey the laws themselves, especially those with are for protection of the oppressed, and those unwritten laws which it is acknowledged shame to break” (Doc 1 D). He shows the qualities of selfless and truthful by showing that “everyone is equal before the law” (Doc 1 B).
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