Forum #2 “The Ideal Statesman”
Directions:
1. Read, Contextualize, and ATQ:
- The Funeral Oration by Pericles - What are the ideals of Athenian democracy? - CHQ
- ATQ - In the eyes of Pericles, what are the ideals of Athenian democracy? In what ways does
Pericles exaggerate his claims?
2. Read, Contextualize, and ATQ:
- The Republic by Plato - What are the qualities of the ideal statesman? - CHQ
- ATQ - What are the qualities of an ideal statesman? According to Plato, why should
philosophers run the government?
3. Answer Questions on Blogger: Discuss the qualities of an ideal statesman according to Plato. Then decide whether Pericles fits the description of an ideal ruler. Base your conclusions on his speech and what you have read about Pericles in the class textbook.
- theidealstatesman.blogspot.com
Follow the Forum Instructions and Grading Guide located in your Google Drive. You also have a hard copy of this handout.
Plato saw that an ideal statesman in his eyes should have traits that consist of: A clear view of their inborn disposition, good character, truthfulness, the passion for learning, selflessness(or being unselfish), experience, kindness with a touch of meanness, a quick learner, the knowledge of life and death, and the freedom from worldly desires (doc 2, C-K). Pericles was not a perfect match, but fit most of his(Plato's) expectations. Pericles was not always an honest man. He did steal large amounts of money from the Delian League (by having the counsel vote to have money spent on items such as gold, ivory, and marble without the league's approval) to decorate Athens, and pay those(such as artists and sculptors) to do so(Beck 135). This was not honest of Pericles, but it was technically used to glorify Athens rather than spending on something that would only benefit him, or say, benefit a certain group of people, like those who are wealthy. Pericles was also a very intelligent, or knowledgeable man. He used money to create a powerful navy, not only to increase the amount of protection the empire had, but to also secure waterways for trading(Beck 135). He(Pericles) was apparently very experienced as well, being described as a skillful politician, an inspiring speaker, and a respected general(Beck 134). Although many of the traits Plato did see needed were not always shown by Pericles, it would seem to me that he still lived up to what Plato wanted as an ideal statesman. Everybody is known to mess up, to make mistakes, to not be perfect, and Pericles is one of these people. He did his job, he did it well, and he made Athens one of the greatest city-states in all of Ancient Greece. Pericles, although his few flaws, is most definitely what an ideal statesman should be in my eyes.
ReplyDeleteI agree with your statements. Pericles /did/ technically steal money from the Delian League’s treasury. It may have been put to excellent use by creating the Mediterranean’s strongest navy, but Pericles also simply made Athens pretty with huge sculptures, and spent excessive amounts of good money on the architects and artists that created buildings and masterpieces. Sure, a city’s physical glory makes it look strong, but it was a little unnecessary. Plus, he spent money on the materials without the league’s consent. That seemed to be Pericles’ only major downfall, though.
DeleteI agree with you Sierra that Pericles created the Mediterranean's strongest navy but he also made Athens sculptures and spent huge amounts of money on the architects and artists that created the buildings and masterpieces. But the major downfall that he had was that he spent money on materials without the league's consent.
DeleteThough I certainly don’t want to be a yes man, I agree with all three of you. Pericles was a really close match, except for those “little” things that pulls him away from the title of ideal statesman. Pericles stealing from the treasury of the Delian League was of course, not something an ideal statesman would do, but to his credit, he did use the money for something that was worth it. Still, this doesn't justify the money jacking at all.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteAccording to Plato in his eyes and ideal statesman should have the traits that consist of: keen-sightedness, good character, experience, knowledge as a high point, inborn disposition, a passion for learning, a love for only the truth, kindness, a deep understanding of life and death, freedom from worldly desires, he must be a quick learner, have balance and be unselfish(doc 2, B-N). Pericles was not a perfect match, but he fit most of Plato's expectations. Pericles was not always an honest man. Pericles did although steal large amounts of money from the Delian League by having the counsel vote to have money spent on items( such as gold, ivory, and marble)without the leagues approval to decorate Athens, and pay those such as the artist and sculptors(Beck,135).He was all about glorifying Athens and helping its inhabitants(Beck,134&135) Pericles was a very intelligent man. Pericles used the money to increase the amount of protection that the empire had and to create a powerful navy, but also to secure the waterways for trading(Beck,135).Pericles was very experienced, that he was described as the " Skillful Politician" as well as an inspired speaker, and respected general as well(Beck,134). He did his job, he did it well, and he made Athens one of the greatest city-states in all Ancient Greece.Despite his few flaws in my eyes Pericles is most definitely what an ideal statesman should be.
ReplyDeleteI agree with your statements. Pericles made his empire stronger by creating the Mediterranean’s most powerful navy. This navy in turn served as a reliable protection from enemies, and most likely gave Athenians a sense of courage and peace. Pericles was indeed skilled on a number different of levels. He fit Plato’s standards on the key point of sociability and knowledge, for sure, which was one of the reason’s he was quite a famous leader.
DeleteI like how you stated a multitude of the characteristics for an ideal statesmen. It really makes the atq more in detail. I also like how you sighted your sources; I still have no idea how to do so.
DeleteThere were a lot of qualities of an ideal statesman that Plato thought of. They had to protect the law, have knowledge and constant passion for it, they has to be truthful and always for the truth, and had to have wisdom. They also wouldn’t have to care about worldly stuff that money buys. Another thing was they had to be gentle, fair, and sociable. The ideal statesman couldn’t be forgetful and had to have a good memory. He would have to be graceful, unselfish and, had to have courage(doc 2:a,e,g,h,I,j,l,,m,n).
ReplyDeleteI don’t think that Pericles was an ideal ruler. He seemed to care about what money could buy and how great things looked. He also wasn’t very truthful when he had taken the money without the delian league knowledge rather than just coming right out asking for the money which wasn’t very honest either. Although he was a good leader and had some good qualities such as not hiding things from the public eye but not letting it interfere with his work, he still wasn’t very close to being the ideal leader(doc:1e:doc 2:g;beck:134,135,138,139).
I disagree with you Courtney. I believe that Pericles is very close to fitting Plato's idea of an ideal statesman in "The Republic". Pericles did protect the law, he had a passion for knowledge, and he was a fair and honest ruler. He was a very wise man establishing everything he did and a great leader in his time, not fearing death, but just wanting a government based on democracy. He fits Plato's ideal statesman pretty close.
DeletePlato had some interesting preferences for the ideal statesman. First and foremost, a statesman had to be superior in knowledge above all else (doc 2, B). This is the most important trait that any good leader could have. Also, Platos ideals including a person who is fair-minded, good, gentle, kind, just, and sociable (doc 2, A, F, G). I think these qualities contribute to the statesman’s potential popularity among the Athenians. If the perfect statesman existed and had these qualities, he would have many appreciative followers and become a popular leader. A good statesman must also not possess a love for money or falsehood, but love truthfulness and have a passion for knowledge of the unpassing (doc 2, D, E). These traits make up any great thinker, so I think Plato had some good preferences there. Finally, an ideal leader must be unforgetful, unselfish, courageous, and have a mind drawn to see reality clearly (doc 2, H, I, J). These are good qualities for any person to have, and are vital for a powerful statesman to have.
ReplyDeleteI don’t think Pericles made the /perfect/ statesman, by Plato’s high standards. Pericles was just, fair, kind and unselfish (doc 1, A-C, H). However, he obviously had a love for money because he spent lots of it on the army and navy, and on decorating Athens (Beck, 135). In light, his purchases were generally for the improvement of the society as a whole. It’s not like he spent money on jewels or a temple for himself. Pericles seemed to be pretty knowledgeable, considering that he kept the Athenians safe during the Peloponnesian War until a plague hit. (Beck, 137). Pericles’ new form of government was very different and very effective. It gave common citizens a chance to serve and have some power (Beck, 135). This made Pericles a respected leader, and the age was named after him as well (Beck, 134). Pericles possessed talents of public speaking, which was not mentioned by Plato, but is obviously useful (Beck, 134). I think Pericles made a very good statesman, although he was perfect by Plato’s expectations.
Sierra, I agree with just about everything you said. It's incredible how much information you presented that just went over my head. Not only did you mention the main ideas but you went as far as to get the tiny ones as well. Such as how Plato expected his statesman to be sociable. I had completely missed that one yet it is pretty plain to see that its very important in winning over the Athenians. I also agree that its not like the money went to himself. He wasn't being selfish or anything he was only trying to improve Athens as a whole. Although, I don't agree that just because he spent money on improving the navy it made him have "a love for money." I feel that he was perfectly justified in spending money in order to protect his society and it was necessary. If he just loved to spend money he would have spent it on himself rather than the society. Other than that, this was fantastic.
DeleteI absolutely agree with what you said. Pericles was not a /perfect/ because of his lust for money, but as you said, he was just, kind, and unselfish. Pericles did buy gold and jewels to decorate Athens. But he was a respected leader, and did possess talents that Plato did see needed in an ideal statesman. He was also quite wise, as you said, keeping the Athenians safe during the Peloponnesian War. This was a great and quite accurate comment
DeleteI agree with you Sierra because Plato did say that a statesman had to be superior in knowledge above all else, fair-minded, good, gentle, kind, just, unforgetful, unselfish, courageous, and have a mind drawn to see reality clearly. I also agree that those qualities are for any person to have, and are vital for a powerful statesman to have. I also agree that Pericles was not perfect and was not Plato's ideal statesman because he had a love for money because he spent lots of it on the army and navy, and on decorating Athens.
DeletePlato had many qualities that would make an ideal statesman. Some of those include a passion for knowledge, love of the truth, being a good person, and being level minded (Doc 2, A, B, E, F). Plato believed that philosophers should run the government because he thought they would know what was best for the city-state.
ReplyDeleteI really don't think Pericles would have posed as the perfect statesman, due to the fact that he didn't meet Plato's standards. It does say that Pericles was unselfish, which was a standard for Plato (Doc 2, D). However, It is seen in the textbook that Pericles had a love for money, and spent it on the decoration of Athens (Beck, 135). In short, he was too interested in money, rather than being a good person, and ruler. Pericles became a very respected ruler because he developed a new government that allowed citizens to serve the society (Beck, 135). Pericles was a very fine statesman, but fell short of Plato's expectations, in my opinion.
I agree wholeheartedly, he was too concerned with money rather than being a better person. Although, he did do it for the better. He intended to strengthen Athens. It may not have been the best way considering he had to go behind the league's back, but his intentions were in the right place. He would indeed have fell short to Plato's expectations, but he would not be overlooked in his eyes. Plato would have at least given Pericles a look before he begun to just toss him away as a potential candidate.
DeleteI totally agree with you guys that Plato was way to concerned about all the money rather than being the better person although he did do it for the better and was trying to strengthen Athens. And that Plato should have given Pericles a look before he began to just toss him away as a potential candidate. So I agree with both of you guys,
DeleteI agree with Dante, Pericles did fall short when it came to Plato's qualities in a statesman. Yeah, at first he met up to the expectations, but then he got full of himself and became very greedy when it came to money. Pericles was more focused on making Athens look good after the defeat of the Persians. In a way a good thing came out of his greediness though, that was a start of beautiful art (Beck,136).
DeleteAccording to Plato the ideal statesman was very intelligent. (Doc 2, A) They had to be extremely loyal and honorable. He must show no other desire than to improve . A statesman must be entirely truthful without any doubt whatsoever. Nothing is more valuable than knowledge to them. Plato also wanted his statesman to pay attention to detail and not let little things slip through the cracks. He needed them to be very keen . They must constantly refer back to previous experiences and learn from past mistakes in order to improve themselves.
ReplyDeletePericles applied to these values in many different ways. He wanted to do nothing but improve his civilization. He did this by beautifying Athens with gold, marble, and ivory. Although, he did do so without the league’s permission, which was against some of Plato’s ideals. (Beck, 135) Pericles had a massive respect for authority as well. Which was a very valued trait by Plato. Plato only wanted people who would be loyal and trustworthy to be in politics. (Doc 1, B) Although this still does not make Pericles a perfect candidate by far because he still did things without their permission. Pericles also worked hard to better the civilization through means of military. He used his resources to strengthen the navy to the point of which it was the strongest one in the Mediterranean. Pericles was very determined to make his empire as strong as it could have possibly been. Overall, Pericles wasn't a perfect statesman in Plato’s eyes, but he definitely puts up a fight. After all Pericles was very knowledgeable, wise, and determined man when it came to running his government.
Triston, I agree with what you said. Pericles was not the perfect statesman, but I appreciate how you put in terms "Pericles applied to these values in many different ways". That was definitely a creative way of describing Pericles. He did steal from the Delian League, but one thing you could have added was that the money was used to glorify Athens, which can be considered selfless, as he did not use the money for himself, which was one of Plato's biggest wants in a statesman. He did also create a very powerful navy, but that wasn't the only reason for this action. He used the navy, not only as a strong point, but to secure waterways for trading.
DeleteI also agree with what you said about Pericles, with the statement that he wasn't the perfect statesman. He did have a lot of traits that Plato adored, aside from the fact that he wasn't a philosopher. I also liked how you mentioned that he beautified Athens with Gold, Marble, and Ivory, and how that he did this without permission, which was also against Plato's expectations. You said it right, Pericles wasn't perfect, but he definitely was great.
DeletePericles was a great statesman like you said and had some flaws though. He did use the money that he took from the delian league to glorify Athens but may be other cities could have used that money to make their city better. Say that one city has a lot less then Greece, he took way money that they could have used to make there city better and they could all be equal on how great they were. He was kind of selfish, but you have a point that he was trustworthy in politics.
DeleteIn the eyes of Pericles the ideals of Athenian democracy is power is in the hands of the people, in public we follow the rules, democracy demands deep respect, and obedience to authority (Doc. 1; A, B, C, D). Pericles exaggerated his claims in the sense that he had set specific ideas on what he thought the ideals of Athenian democracy should have been. Plato thought the the qualities of an ideal statesman was that they needed control of commonwealth, passion for knowledge, truthfulness, unselfish, and good memory (Doc. 2, C, D, E, F, G, H). He thought that if they didn’t acquire these characteristics they were not fit to run government. According to Plato philosophers should have run government because they had greater knowledge, greatest point of superiority, and better qualifications (Doc. 2, B).
ReplyDeleteWhat Plato believed to be the qualities of a good/ideal statesman, was that they should be clear minded, have a passion for knowledge, being truthful and a hatred for lying, and being wise(Doc 2, A,B,C,D,E,F,G). These qualities sound like something of a perfect man, a Mary Sue of sorts. In a way, Pericles fits this description quite well. As he managed to make Athens one of the greatest Greek City states in the ancient world, such as how he improved their democratic system and glorying it, and develop Athens culture greatly (Beck, 134, 135)(Doc 1, A). Yet, he wasn’t perfect. As just as Pericles was, he monopolized the treasury of the Delian League for his how city-state’s benefit. Such as using the money to improve the Athens navy, and use it to improve how Athens looks, such as buying gold, ivory, and marble to beautify Athens (Beck, 135). This shows how Pericles manages to make Athens the best Greek city-state out of the rest of them. Yet, as many of you should know, he wasn’t able to stop the demise of Athens itself due to the internal fighting with Sparta. So in the end, as much as he was a great leader, luck wasn’t on his side when the sickness shook Athens. So, in the eyes of Plato, if Plato didn’t know about the money spending, he might had been Plato’s ideal statesman.
ReplyDeleteJason, you've actually proved a lot of valid points, and I probably would have never thought of that in that point of view that you have. I would have to disagree with you though. Yes, Pericles used money to build a stronger army but in the end, the money he spent on the "stronger" army wasn't worth it anyways. Plato would find out about the money at some point if he was there. Plato would not have been happy about Pericles' love for money because, a statesman would have to fit ALL the qualities of the ideal statesman, not just some.
DeleteI agree Jason because Plato did believe that a good statesman had to be clear minded, be truthful, be wise, and have a love for learning. I also agree that Pereclies somewhat fits the description. He fit the description because like you said he managed to make Athens one of the greatest Greek City states in the ancient world, such as how he improved their democratic system and glorying it, and developed Athens culture greatly. I also agree that he was not perfect.
DeleteAn ideal statesman according to Plato is preferably a philosopher because they can apprehend the eternal,"Surely the one that follows next in order. Since the philosophers are those who can apprehend the eternal and unchanging, while those who cannot do so, but are lost in the mazes of multiplicity and change, are not philosophers, which of the two ought to be in control of a state"(1N,A). One of the biggest reasons why a philosopher is ideally suited to be a statesman was their intellect,"It would be absurd not to choose the philosophers, whose knowledge is perhaps their greatest point of superiority, provided they do not lack those other qualifications"(1N,C). Another reason why Plato preferred a philosopher to be a statesman was their love for knowledge,"One trait of the philosophic nature we may take as already granted: a constant passion for any knowledge that will reveal to them something of that reality which endures for ever and is not always passing into and out of existence(1N,D). Pericles was not what Plato considered ideal for a statesman. The reason why Pericles was not ideal was he was not a philosopher. A reason why he was ideal is because he was smart. During the Peloponnesian war he had a great strategy to defeat the Spartans,"Sparta had the stronger army, and its location inland meant that it could not easily be attacked by sea. Pericles’ strategy was to avoid land battles with the Spartan army and wait for an opportunity to strike Sparta and its allies from the sea"(Beck,137). Another reason was he his city was managed well and should be an example upon other cities,"Taking everything together then, I declare that our city is an education to Greece, and I declare that in my opinion each single one of our citizens, in all the manifold aspects of life, is able to show himself the rightful lord and owner of his own person, and do this, moreover, with exceptional grace and exceptional versatility"(1M,G).
ReplyDeleteI absolutely agree with you Fabian. Plato did prefer philosophers for there intellect, as should anybody. One thing that philosophers had that normal statesman didn't have, was that thirst for more knowledge. Philosophers also did have the ability to look into the eternal, which could help a nation with preparing for the future. I like how you included these statements in your blog because they are all true and have textual evidence.
DeleteI do not agree with you Fabian. Plato might have preferred a philosopher, but you don't have to be one to have the traits of an ideal statesman and Perciles had many of those traits .He might had not had a passion for all knowledge, but he did have a passion for government. He was a fair honest ruler who protected the law. A very wise man he would be an ideal statesman according to "The Republic" by Plato.
DeleteI agree with you. Plato says that the ideal statesman should have a passion for knowledge. He also says in order to have knowledge, they much not have a forgetful mind. The statesman needs to be kind and have no love for money. According to Plato, he says that the ideal statesman needs to be kind, truthful and, most important, have wisdom. I agree with your statement.
DeleteAccording to Plato, the ideal statesman is a philosopher. He thought this because philosophers were said to have been able to see and look into the eternal (Doc 1N, A). Philosophers were said to have a very expansive knowledge, as it says "it would be absurd not to choose the philosophers, whose knowledge is perhaps their greatest point of superiority, provided they do not lack those other qualifications"(Doc 1N, B). Another thing that philosophers had that Plato adored was there thirst for more and more knowledge (Doc 1N, C). These were all traits that Plato wanted for an ideal statesman, since these were traits that Plato preferred, Pericles was definitely not an ideal statesmen. Pericles showed no sign of being able to look into the eternal, however, he did have an expansive knowledge. He was very knowledgeable in the fact that he knew strategies for battle. He knew that Sparta's location was very inland, so when it was time for battle, they would wait for an opportunity to strike from the sea (Beck, 137). He was also unique, but genius by suggesting a full democracy, that was fully ran by the people of the civilization (Doc 1M, A). Since this is what he wanted to happen, this would make everyone equal in law (Doc 1M, B). The strangest thing about all of Pericles' suggestions, is that it worked...
ReplyDeleteThe ideal statesman is, in a way, a philosopher. So saying that the ideal statesman has to be a philosopher is valid. But, there are qualities in there that a philosopher doesn't have that makes them only a close fit for the ideal statesman. As Plato said, this “idea statesman” needed to have a strong sense of justice, and have a duty to protect. Other than that, I agree that a philosopher can be, in many ways, Plato’s ideal statesman. Addressing about how you saw Plato saw Pericles. How I saw the looking into the eternal, is generally being able to look at the bigger picture, and I think Pericles did a good job with that, his ways of achieving and exciting his plans weren't that great sometimes, but he certainly was able to see the bigger picture. Other than that, many of your statements are what I certainly agree with Max.
DeleteI agree with your statement. Plato valued wisdom in a statesman. He does say that they need to have a love for knowledge, and not money. Plato also believed that that the ideal statesman must not be dishonest, a coward pretentious, and mean. The ideal statesman in Plato's eyes is mature, truthful, and knowledgeable.
DeleteAccording to Plato, the qualities of an ideal statesman were, someone who was fit to be a leader, honest, knowledgeable, not greedy and many other important qualities as well (Doc 2, b, c, f, g). At the beginning of Pericles being a statesman, he did fit the descriptions of Plato's qualities. Pericles was fair, and believed in democracy amongst a constitution (Doc 1, a, b). After the defeat of the Persians, that's when Pericles seemed to not follow the qualities of Plato, Pericles seemed get greedy, and focused on the material things. "Pericles also used money, from the Delian League to beautify Athens" (Beck, 135). Although Pericles did this to glorify Athens, a love for money doesn't fit the qualities of Plato's ideal statesmen. Pericles had a love for money.
ReplyDeletepericles also wasnt honest with some things.he also was but wasnt trustworthy. he wasnt trust worthy with money but was trustworthy and honest in politics though.you are fight when you said he was greedy with money and how he focused on material things even though platos idea of an ideal statesman was not to care about the material things.he was still a great political leader but he went another way after he was defeated, like ajani said.
DeleteI like how you counteracted your argument, stating that Pericles did AND did not fit the characteristics for an ideal statesmen.
DeletePlato's ideal states men had to act, feel, and think a certain way according to "The Republic" by Plato. An ideal statesmen had to protect the law (Doc2,A). They would need to have a great passion and "desire to know the whole of that reality" (Doc2,E,G). They also had to be truthful, fair minded, have grace, and have absolutely no love for money, or fear of death (Doc2, H, K, M, I, J). I believe Pericles fits the description of an ideal ruler according to Plato. Pericles was very wise and good at what he did, "Honest and fair" ruler traits a ideal statesman needs in "The Republic" (Beck, 134). He believed in equal rights, and protecting those rights (Doc1, A ,E). Pericles traits match up very good of Plato's ideal statesmen.
ReplyDeleteThe ideal statesman to Plato has the characteristics of a philosopher. Plato values wisdom in a statesman "It would be absurd not to choose the philosopher, whose knowledge is perhaps their greatest point of superiority, provided they do not lack those other qualifications"(doc 2, A). The statesman also has to guard the law and the ways of society. "To establish as Guardians whichever of the to appear competent to guard the laws and the says of life in society" (doc 2, B). According to Plato, the ideal statesman also has to be truthful. "Is there not another trait which the nature we are seeking cannot fail to posses, truthfulness, a love of truth and hatred for falsehood that will not tolerate untruth in any forum" (doc 2, D). Plato also believed in equal rights. "Power is in the hands not of a minority but of the whole people. When it is a question of settling private disputes everyone is equal before the law" (doc 1 A). The ideal stateman needs to be mature, responsible, and have a passion for knowledge.
ReplyDeleteThe ideal statesmen to Plato has the characteristics of a philosopher. Characteristics of a philosopher are truthfulness,"desire to know the whole of that reality", and a guardian figure. Also,"a constant passion for any knowledge that will reveal to them something of that reality." Plato's ideal statesmen is basically a reincarnation of perfection. "You will observe whether, from youth up, he is fair-minded, gentle, and sociable." Pericles fits this description very well. He managed to make Athens one of the greatest Greek City-states in the ancient world, he improved their democratic system and glorified it; and developed Athens culture greatly. Pericles showed no sign of being able to look into the eternal, however, he was very knowledgeable. He knew a lot in the fact of strategizing for battle. He was well aware that Sparta's location was very inland, so when it was time for battle, they would wait for an opportunity to strike from the sea.
ReplyDelete