Forum #2 “The Ideal Statesman”
Directions:
1. Read, Contextualize, and ATQ:
- The Funeral Oration by Pericles - What are the ideals of Athenian democracy? - CHQ
- ATQ - In the eyes of Pericles, what are the ideals of Athenian democracy? In what ways does
Pericles exaggerate his claims?
2. Read, Contextualize, and ATQ:
- The Republic by Plato - What are the qualities of the ideal statesman? - CHQ
- ATQ - What are the qualities of an ideal statesman? According to Plato, why should
philosophers run the government?
3. Answer Questions on Blogger: Discuss the qualities of an ideal statesman according to Plato. Then decide whether Pericles fits the description of an ideal ruler. Base your conclusions on his speech and what you have read about Pericles in the class textbook.
- theidealstatesman.blogspot.com
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According to Plato, an ideal statesman would be someone who has a clearer view, someone who's knowledge is perhaps at their greatest point of superiority. Plato also says that an ideal statesman would be someone who has an instinctive passion for any object and should not care for money(Doc 2,A,E,H,I). I would say that Pericles does not fit the ideal statesman because in order to strengthen the democracy he increased the number of officials who were paid(beck,134). In order to be considered an ideal statesman you had to be passionate and not care about money or material things. In Pericles's case he was only passionate about glorifying Athens and he used money from other people to buy gold, ivory, and marble(Beck,135).
ReplyDeleteI agree with everything you said, but I would just like to add that another way Pericles glorified the Athens was by using money to develop the Parthenon. This was a temple dedicated to Athena, the goddess of wisdom and protector of Athens. (Beck, 136) I can see why this temple and Pericles relate, since Pericles himself protected Athens using his strategies and tactics. (Beck, 135) Also, one of the main reasons Plato and Pericles differed is because one wanted a democracy and the other wanted a republic. (Beck, 134, 135)
DeleteI agree with a lot of the things you said in your response. Perciles did not fit the ideal ruler because he had a passion for material items. If he was thinking at the higher level that Plato described, he would know that there are greater things beyond this life. He also worried about what other cities would see of Athens and wanted that envy and fear from them, which would not be as important to a philosopher as it was to him.
DeleteI agree with your comment. I agree because Plato looked for an intelligent individual who had an understanding of life of not only his but of those who are greater than him(Doc 2 C). Pericles wanted a government ruled by the whole people while Plato wanted a philosopher to rule.
DeleteAccording to Plato there had to be a few qualities to be an ideal statesman, Plato’s idea of an ideal statesman would be that the statesman would have to be aware of things, he also believed that knowledge should be their greatest point of superiority, and lastly he believed that an ideal statesman should have an instinctive passion for any object that he is akin to(Doc 2, a,b,c). In my opinion I think Pericles does fit the description of an ideal ruler. I believe he did fit the description of a ruler because the text stated that Pericles had three goals which were to strengthen the Athenian democracy, hold and strength the empire, and to glorify the Athens (Beck, 134). Usually only rulers would want to strengthen and glorify an empire. Pericles fitted the description of a ruler, but was not one because in his speech he believed the people should govern themselves and not have rulers (Doc 1 a,b).
ReplyDeleteYour thoughts about Plato's qualities to be an ideal statesman were pretty similar to mine, but I disagree with Pericles fitting the description. You said "had three goals which were to strengthen the Athenian democracy". Plato did not want a democracy. He wanted a republic ruled by a philosopher. (Beck, 138) Pericles focused on money and war while Plato was leaning more towards having a complete understanding of the laws and ways of society. (Doc 2, B) Their views on ruling their citizens were different, and that's why I don't believe Pericles fits the description.
DeleteI see where you are coming from in your response, but I disagree with Pericles being the ideal ruler. Pericles said he wanted to strengthen the empire, but I feel like he was more focused on other peoples perspectives of Athens. He wanted other cities to fear and admire the greatness and power of Athens and I feel like he did it more for the glory of himself than Athens. His plans were great and he was a respected leader, but they didnt reach the requirements of Plato's ideal ruler.
DeleteFor the most part I agree with you. The only part I disagree with is about Pericles being an ideal statesman. Pericles liked material things and wanted all people to have a say in the government (Doc 1, A). Plato looked for an intellectual person who thought deeper than Pericles would.
DeleteI agree with what you said about Plato's thoughts on a great statesman, however i don't believe Pericles is that man. He worried too much of what different people, not from Athens, thought and didn't take much authority. Also, Pericles wasted the money on many unnecessary sculptures and that is not being very wise. Overall, i liked what you said and agreed with most of it, but i just don't think he was the ideal statesman.
DeleteI agree with you on what you said about Plato and the ideal statesman because it is fairly similar to what I wrote down. But I think that there is more that you could have added to the Plato part. Also when you started to talk about Pericles, I agreed with you even though that's not what I put. I like how you included the last part saying That he fitted the description of a ruler but he wasn't one because he believed people should be free to govern themselves without a ruler.
DeleteI want start off by disagreeing with you on your thoughts on Pericles. You have a good understanding of the ideal statesman but i am not sure you understood what Pericles believed and what Plato wanted. Pericles thought money was extremely important, also he had thoughts on make the empire stronger. That's not what Plato thought of an ideal statesman. In the end of your summary you explained the reason he wasn't a ruler which was good because you cleared up some of your thoughts.
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DeleteStephanie, I have to agree with you. Plato really did have a list of detailed things that an ideal statesmen should have. Now, you said that you think that Pericles would “fit the description of an ideal ruler”. I both agree and disagree to this statement. I guess it would be fair to say that he might have been an excellent ruler. However, when it comes to being the statesmen that Plato so detailedly described, he wouldn’t have. Why?- In my opinion he wouldn’t fit the description because, according to the book, he used some of the money from the city’s treasury to luxurize the city. A good statesman wouldn’t waste money on unneeded things. Also, he was very antisocial and didn’t really befriend the people, as any good statesmen should have done.
DeleteI agree with you, a leader should be akin to the need of his follower. Their first instinct should be to willing to satisfied of their follower.
Deletebut i don't think Pericles was an ideal statesmen he worried himself with money and other things instead on his peoples' problems.
Plato envisioned a Republic ruled by a philosopher. It was based on the concept of justice and the division of 3 classes: farmers and artisans, warriors, and the ruling class. (Beck, 138)He wants to direct the city to the benefit all the people and not just individual groups or the philosopher himself. Having an open mind and the ability to make decisions was a trait that was looked for in a ruler. The main idea here is that all the classes work in harmony to develop a justice state. (Doc 2, A, B, C) I don't believe Pericles would fit the role of Pericles' ideal ruler for many reasons. First off, Pericles wanted a city-state of democracy. They used direct democracy, a form of government in which citizens rule directly. (Beck, 135) Pericles also focused on many materialistic things such as money and military machines. (Beck, 136) He only wanted to glorify the Athens and be remembered for the things that he created or bought. (Beck, 135) Plato's views on a developing a city of equal and satisfied citizens revolved around understanding their needs and using common knowledge to deal with conflict. (Doc 2, B, D, F) Pericles wanted equality throughout the people, but did not use much of his time towards understanding the people. (Doc 1, A)
ReplyDeleteErica I can't say what I wanna say because it's not school appropriate but I agree with you 100%. I like how you dug down and got more information about what Plato wanted in and, ruler and how the justice system was designed. When you went into talking about Pericles, you made that part very detailed also by including that he wanted people to know him for the things that he created and bought. I also like how you said Plato wanted to direct a city so that it benefited every individual person, then at the end you said Pericles wanted equality throughout his people, but did not take the time to understand them. Good Job Erica !
DeleteI agree, believe Plato wanted everyone to have a say based on their class in society. That way everyone's opinion on an idea or problem was heard. A philosopher would focus on things a city needed in the terms of leadership and guidance. I really like how you broke it down and simplified it, it made it easy to understand. nice work!
DeletePlato had several qualities that made up the ideal statesman. First off, the statesman needs to be truthful and have a thirst for knowledge(doc 2, a-b). He also needed to a philisophical mindset, which meant that he would be able to retain knowledge and understand that there are greater things than this life(doc 2, e-g). Pericles perfect government would consist of a government ran by citizens of any wealth or class and expected the Athenians to have a lot of respect for themselves and get even more from others(doc 1, a-c). He held the Athenians to a high standard and expected others to beware of the power they'd have(doc 1,e). I don't feel like Pericles would fit the description of Plato's ideal ruler because he did not see things at a deeper, philosophical level. He worried a lot about what other people thought and saw from the Athenians rather than having the intellectual level Plato looked for by digging deeper than the outlook. Though he was a fair and well respected ruler, his plans lacked the craving for knowledge and deeper level thinking that was key to that philosophical mindset Plato described (Beck, 134).
ReplyDeleteI agree with what you were trying to say about how Pericles saw Athens from a citizen’s point of view. This is because Pericles believed in direct democracy where every citizen was involved with politics and everyone is treated equal. (Doc 1 E, B) He didn’t see himself superior over others because he wasn’t. Plato would be looking for a leader who would be respected and would guide the people of Athens. Plato wouldn’t have seen Pericles as an ideal statesman.
DeleteI agree in what you where saying about how Pericles would have a society ran by the citizens and how he would not fit the description of an ideal statesman for Plato. Also, how he expected the Athenians to aware of the power they had as
Deletewhole society and needed to cautious about the whole deal. I also agree how Pericles did not seek the knowledge standard that Plato look for in a ruler. I still do believe that Pericles was great ruler as well.
I agree with basically everything you said, your thoughts on Plato's beliefs were very accurate. Plato did believe a statesman should definitely be thirsty for knowledge. Also, how he knew Athenians were powerful beyond other's knowledge because they had a perfect government. Additionally, Pericles was not the man to fit Plato's description because lacked passion for expertise wasn't a very sociable man.
DeleteI agree with you about Pericles. Like you said, he wasn't a philosopher, so he didn't really have that deep understanding of government and society. Sure he would have been a good leader because people liked him, at first, but what would happen if people start to question his views and ideas.
DeletePlato wanted an ideal philosopher to rule. One quality he looked for was someone who had a thirst for knowledge(Doc 2 B-C). He also looked for someone who did not care for money and held a passion for any object(Doc 2 E-F).Lastly, a philosopher who loves the truth and dislikes lies or falsehood was a quality Plato looked for(Doc 2 D). I believe that Pericles would not fit as an ideal statesman. Pericles did possess good qualities, but not the qualities Plato looked for. Pericles wanted a government that the whole people could have a say in, no matter the social ranking(Doc 1 A-B). Pericles also believed In a respect for authority and that all individuals obey the rules. Individuals were expected to not only tend to his needs, but also the affairs of where they lived. ONE who did not care for the politics of his state had no business living there(Doc 1 C-E). Although Pericles was a fair and respectful ruler, he and his plans lacked the want for more knowledge and mindset that Plato described in a ruler(Beck,134).
ReplyDeleteI agree in how Plato wanted a philosopher rule the Republic society. He wanted a philosopher in which thirst for knowledge and like you said did not care for money. Pericles was a great leader due to his belief in democracy and the people believed in him as well. Also how he had very fair laws in his society and the people agreed with them.
DeleteI agree with you Pericles doesn't really fit in Plato’s idea of an ideal statesman. Plato wanted someone who was a philosopher(beck,138) because he thought that was the best way in order to understand how to rule a society. On the other hand, Pericles did treat people equally no matter what class they were in. Also He wanted people to be very involved in the government(doc 1,E), and that was something Plato was not looking for.
DeleteThe qualities of an ideal statement would be that they have a thirst for knowledge and understanding. Plato believed in a republic in which an ideal statesman would rule the people and would care for them. Here Plato says that " It would be absurd not to choose the philosophers, whose knowledge is perhaps their greatest point of superiority, provided they do not lack those other qualifications. He is saying that we want a philosopher with great knowledge but, want more qualifications out of that ideal statesman(Doc 2, B). I believe Pericles would fit in as a ruler of a republic society. He did care for his people and contained some of those qualities of an ideal statesman. He led a democracy in which the people would rule and he states "Our constitution is called a democracy because power in the hands of a minority but of the whole people"(Doc 1, A). See Pericles had three main goals to strengthen Athenian democracy and they are to strengthen the Athenian democracy, hold and strength the empire, and to glorify the Athens (Beck, 134). Due to all of these reasons he could become an ideal statesman for Republic society.
ReplyDeleteI agree with most of what you wrote. However, another quality of an ideal statesman was that they had no desire for materialistic things. They valued wisdom over possessions. (Doc 2 B) However, Pericles did not show this characteristic. In order to strengthen democracy he increased the number of public officials that were paid salaries. He also spent lots of money to glorify Athens with gold, ivory, and marble.(Beck, 135) This just shows that he was not an ideal statesman according to Plato’s vision.
DeleteAccording to Plato, an ideal statesman is someone with a clear view on the things around them, with no desire for artificial things, and who share a love for wisdom. Plato also said that as a person a statesman should be fair, gentle, and sociable. (Doc 2 A, B, C, D) I would agree that Pericles did not fit the description of an ideal ruler because he is notorious for strengthening Democracy by increasing the number of public officials that were paid salaries. (Beck, 134) Also, without the leagues approval he spent lots of money to buy gold, marble, and ivory to glorify Athens and he even had a huge sculpture of Athena to be built. (Beck, 135) These all went against Plato’s idea of a statesman because he thought that you shouldn’t have any desire for items that are always passing in and out of existence. Plato also believed that an official should be wise and it was not very wise of Pericles to go against the league and take money from them without permission. Even though Pericles was not an ideal statesman you also have to realize that he wasn’t one. Pericles created a Democracy that gave power to the people while Plato believed in a republic controlled by philosophers. They both had totally two different visions for Athens.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you on your understanding of the ideal statesman, You had many thoughts similar to mine. You thought of him as a man for a love of wisdom. He had no desire for materialistic items, but knew to be kind to others. Your thoughts came together nicely there. I also agree on your vies on Pericles, and how he spent too much money, and increasing the number of public officials. Plato wanted a man with no desire to get worked up over money, and i think you did a good job portraying those ideas.
Deletei agree with what you said because according to Plato, you did need a few qualities to be a ideal statesman, they were pretty much the same as mine but i have to disagree on you saying Pericles fitting the description because Pericles did not want to use a direct democracy, instead he wanted a city-state democracy(Beck, 135). Plato wanted philosopher who had a good understanding of the law and society(doc2,b). But Pericles had only cared about glorifying Athens and money. Pericles preferred a government that everyone could have a vote and a say-so in. He also had expected high standards of the people and to be cautious of the power that they had(doc1,a-d).
ReplyDeleteAs reported by Plato, the basic ideal statesman is a person who sees the many sides to an argument. He or she needs to have a passion for knowledge and never ignore cases, no matter how big or small (doc 2 A, B). Also, he must talk to the people as a friend and not a higher official, basically build a relationship with the people. However, I believe Percicles does not fit Plato's description. First of all, he was unsociable from his birth to death. He only socialized through his speeches and went back home (beck, 135). Also, he wasted the peoples' money on sculptures other than improving the town's defense system or community.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you for the most part , but Pericles wasn't that horrible. For example he treated everyone equally no matter what class they were in, so isn't that reasoning with the people as friends, but also fellow human beings(doc 1, B). Also Pericles spent the money on those things because the government could afford it, if the people were upset with him using the money like that they could have easily overthrown him and a tyrant could have taken over (beck,127). So in some way Pericles did fit the ideals of Plato for a statesman.
DeleteDavid! I very strongly believe that all that you said was true. Pericles didn’t exactly fit Plato’s description of an ideal statesmen. He wasted money on gold and other things instead of making the city better. Also, it is necessary for any ruler leading a democratic system to socialize with the people. If he didn’t socialize he would have never been aware of the problem that they have to live by or live with. I think Plato would have made a better statesmen. At least if he followed everything that he had said.
DeleteThe qualities of an ideal states men according to Plato is that he should be a philosopher (beck,138).In Plato’s speech he emphasizes that the leader should have a love for wisdom, knowledge, and truth, he states that he should be judged on how fast or how slow he learns (doc 2,A,BC). Pericles fits the ideals of Plato, but at the same time he doesn't. Pericles believed that everyone is equal before the law and that required truthfulness (doc 1, B). On the other hand Plato wanted a philosopher as a king because he thinks they are the most wise people there can be, but Pericles wasn't a philosopher, but he was still wise because people liked him, they wanted him to rule. So kings do not need to be philosophers in order to rule or to make the perfect society, it just takes someone who knows the people he is ruling.
ReplyDeleteI agree with the part of Pericles fitting the position, but he doesn't. He wasn't a philosopher, which was the main requirement for Plato, and just because the people wanted him to rule doesn't mean hes a good leader. Some people could have had other opinions and just a small amount of them could have wanted him to rule.
DeletePlato had many ideas or specifications on the perfect statesman. First off Plato expected him to have a wide variety of wisdom, and not care so much about the material items, but about his thoughts, beliefs, etc. Pericles could not fit the description or be the ideal statesman because of his liking of material items, also he had no intention of a direct democracy, he preferred city-state. Many people saw Pericles as a great ruler, but he was not a philosopher. Plato was looking for a man with great knowledge and still wants to know more. He wanted him not to loathe over money, someone who cared about others and not only himself. Kindness and boldness were also a necessity that the ideal statesman would have. Plato thought highly of the ideal statesman which is why he expected great things.
ReplyDeleteAccoring to Plato an ideal statesman and leader should have the qualities of, being a philosopher (Beck 138), be able to understand change, have a high point of knowledge, and be truthfull (doc 2, a,c,d). I do believe Pericles did fit the position of being an ideal ruler. He was a talented speaker and a general respected by many, but at the same time, I don't think he would have mad a good ruler. He cared very much about military sucsess, which is good, but I think he may have pushed it a little more than it needed to be (Beck, 135). Plus, he wasn't a philosopher like Plato thought leaders needed to be.
ReplyDeleteYes, I agree with most of your statements. Yeah, Pericles did have great qualities to start with, and yeah, he did screw it up later down the road (Beck 134-138).
DeleteAs for your last statement, I completely disagree. Sure, Plato thought that philosophers made the perfect rulers, but he never said that you absolutely HAD TO BE a philosopher. He said that philosophers fit the job description, which was according to him. Even then it could've been a little biased since Plato was a philosopher himself. The point is that you don't need to be a philosopher to be the "ideal statesman".
“The Ideal Statesmen”
ReplyDeleteAccording to Plato, an ideal statesmen should be someone who knows a lot of information and is able to retain it. He/she should also be honest, fair, not greedy, and a good judge (Doc 2:A,D,E,F,G). This person would have to have these qualities in order to be an ideal statesmen. This person would not lie to his city and would know what to do and how to react in stressful times when nobody seems to know what to do. Pericles would not be an ideal statesmen because he is too based on the city’s luxury; an ideal statesmen shouldn’t be greedy (Textbook page 135- Glorifying Athens). Pericles used part of the money from the Athenian treasury to buy gold and other luxury. An “ideal statesmen” would have put the money to better use.
With Plato, I totally agree. The ideal statesman, according to Plato, is not a liar and is honest because he should seek after the truth (doc2n, e, f).
DeleteBut for Pericles, I disagree. Pericles wasn't just a selfish money-lover, to start, he was "favored by the people" and he was "honest and fair" (Beck 134). Though these traits were short and probably not noticeable, they are very important facts about who Pericles really was. Heck, the guy was so "honest and fair" he basically gave Athens to the people by creating a direct democracy (Beck 134-135). And also, Glorifying Athens wasn't so bad. I mean, it wasn't exactly all for him, but instead for the enjoyment of the people. That even lead to the Golden Age of Greece with prosperity and wealthy, not individually, which absolutely benefited the people.
The ideal statesmen would be someone who doesn't have the power in just the hands of a select few but the hands of all the people(doc 1, A). Someone who took time to contemplate over issues. The statesmen would take all people problems into consideration and works to solve them. Someone intelligent who had a good moral conscience.(doc 2,H). some one who isn't greedy, with a good judge of character, who is honest and fair. (doc 2, E, G,).
ReplyDeleteAccording to Plato, the ideal statesman is a man who, in general, is wise and kind-hearted (doc2n, a, c-k). Plato believed that philosophers should be the ideal ruler because coincidentally, they both have the same descriptions. He believed that the statesman should be someone who seeks after the truth and accepts change (doc2n, e, f, h). Pericles, according to Plato's description of the ideal statesman and his description in the literature book, would, for the most part, definitely fit the role of "the ideal statesman". According to the book, Pericles is wise, an able statesman, kind and fair, a great speaker, a respected general, and even had the favor of the people (Beck 134). Pericles even did so much for the people as to have them rule as a "direct democracy" (Beck 135). So he basically was loved by the people and gave Athens to the people, to their benefit. Wow, if that doesn't fit into Plato's description of the ideal statesman, than I don't know what does.
ReplyDeleteBut as you look further into the text, you will see that Pericles does in fact have his flaws. Unlike the ideal ruler, Pericles sought for riches and gold (doc2n, g). Even though it wasn't for him he did use vast amounts of riches like a billionaire at the dollar store (Beck 135-136). Another one of his flaws is that he very much glorified the military. Though it was not clear in the text, it was very much implied when he strengthened his empire and wanted to start quarrels with Sparta, twice, which caused the downfall of his own little project (Beck 134-135, 137-138).
So overall, yes, Pericles does fit the role of ideal statesman, according to Plato, despite his flaws.